[Montaine's Scrapbook] The Cellar Door

[Minerva Agatha Zipporah]

@ Pash - Awesome! And you made a lovely bride I must say.

@ Anselm - You don't need to be a literary scholar like Monty or a Writing Arts major like me to be a good writer! I love reading your posts!

@ Echelon - I'm quite introverted as well. I have major problems being around people. I may actually have something like asperger's syndrome, I have so much trouble understanding people's emotions and so forth. Online is easier, but in person? Forget it.

And the last time I cried was a month ago, when my Communication Theory class ended. I loved that class so much. I actually cried walking to my car after the last exam u.u

[Montaine]

Inside the Mind of an Introvert Okay, as it is double scrap day and I don't have a graded thread for which to give out thanks, I shall instead start this off with a quick response to those of you that posted between this morning and now. In no particular order, except the one you posted in, here goes. Pash, you as delightfully insane as I am, and much of the rest of Mizahar, and look great in a wedding dress, you should wear it all the time. Minnie, if you're a crier then you're a crier, it's how you express your emotions and it's sweet, just if we ever by chance come face to face know that I will have no bloody clue as to what to do if you start blubbing at me. Anselm, if there's something I've learned studying literature it's that the classics are boring as hell, give me Terminator 2 over Tale of Two Cities any day, and you were top of my list of Zeltivans I wanted to thread with when I joined, your character design and writing style is impeccable. Arcane, I still have no idea who you are and it's killing me, but thank you for the compliment about the beginning, I was getting more and more disheartened by my lack of muse as the thread went on, so hopefully that explains the downward turn. Finally, dear Eche, this is for you: So, I'm an introvert. Don't get me wrong, I'm good with people, I know all the right things to say and just when to say them, but being good with people doesn't mean I like spending time with them. Again, however, that's not to say I'm a complete misanthrope. Only one of my housemates is extroverted and we recently discussed the ideal number of friends to have. We came to the conclusion that his perfect group would be vast, and he would have many such groups whereas I would have two or three, perhaps four or five, very close friends total. This, I guess, is shown quite well in our respective Facebook friends lists. He has me slightly beaten 543 to 21. Now that we have established the, admittedly rather obvious, fact that I'm somewhat introverted, let's move on to the matter at hand. The question posed is how does it feel for an introvert to be both around people and alone. I think one of the reasons that it is so hard to establish why people have these personal differences is because the thought processes of each group seem to be so alien to one another when, having read Echelon's explanation of his feelings when surrounded by a crowd, it seems that they are in fact very similar. The precise and perfect line he used is as follows: 'I think about all those lives, those feelings, and somewhere along the line everything about myself ceases to matter.' Of course, paraphrasing an entire argument into a single sentence is never a good idea, but bare with me. The idea that being around people allows you to forget yourself is the key, for me. An extrovert can concentrate on how others feel, they can live through others and are rejuvenated because they no longer have to worry about themselves. Again, this is a vast, swooping generalisation but it makes a good comparison to my reaction in these situations. When surrounded by people I do nothing but think of myself. I think of how these people are reacting to me, how I hold myself so as to be in control of what people see, what people hear of me. It is only on my own that I can let down my guard and finally stop caring about myself. Extroverts and introverts get the same feeling of relaxation of the self, but in precisely the opposite situations. Let us take a practical example. Today I was in a group of seven of my closest friends and myself for much of the day. It was fun, I enjoyed myself and had a good time overall, but I could not relax. I was worried, for example, that one of my friends who was sick but had made the five minute journey from her house to mine would want to go home but would be too polite to ask and instead suffer through a gathering of people that she did not know well whilst she was ill and not having fun. However, as soon as this thought ended the next thought began, if I told her she could go home, would she take that as an insult? Would she think that I didn't want her there? Would normal people let her potentially suffer for fear of insulting her? What was the right course of action? Then there were the cards, how do I respond? In truth I wasn't fussed, the cards were from only two of the guests because generally I don't do cards. Is my face showing my apathy for cards? Should I feign joy to be polite? How much fake happiness is too much fake happiness for a piece of card? These are my friends, they'll know if the joy I should receive from these cards doesn't match up to the joy I present to them. It's overthinking, really. When the cards are down I overthink social situations because I am far too aware of the number of other people, the number of people that I have to insert into the social equations flitting through my head. I have to give each person equal time, but then surely I should give those I know better more time? Or those I know less more time? These are the questions that fill the mind of the introvert when they are around more people. We are forever trying to judge others feelings and emotions and while I see myself as perfectly able to do that it is still an exhausting exercise. I can't imagine how hard it must be for those who have difficulty reading faces. So, I hope that helped any of you extroverts to understand your reclusive compatriots and draws an end to double scrap day. So long. Word of the day: it's still echelon, what can I say? That's what you get for double scrap day. -Monty

[Minerva Agatha Zipporah]

On introverts and being among crowds, I have a slightly different perspective. When I'm out in a crowd, I tend to hide in a corner. I have trouble putting myself out there, and can't talk to people unless they talk to me first.

A couple of weeks ago I went out to a bar with a friend and one of his coworkers. I was there for an hour and a half while they talked to each other, and I sat and stared. I may also have written a Mizahar post on my cell phone while sitting there. I'm pretty sure I did.

Why didn't I talk to them? Because I couldn't figure out a way to involve myself in their conversation. I didn't know the other guy, and thus the two of them were mostly talking about their jobs, which I couldn't relate to. I felt like anything I tried to say would be "butting in" on their conversation. I listened, I tried to make eye contact, but mostly I found myself wondering if they even cared that I was there, whether they were interested in talking to me, or what.

I wanted to leave for about the last 45 minutes of it. But it took me that 45 minutes to work up the courage to go, because I was worried they'd be insulted that I left, or think it was their fault. I spent that time trying to think of excuses, and watching the clock until it was late enough that I could reasonably use the "I have work in the morning" excuse.

I don't do well with crowds. I prefer to be around a max of three people at any given time.

[Anselm]

Minnie raises an interesting point. I find that I have a low tolerance for small talk, that vacuous conversation that isn't really about anything. It simply fails to be interesting.

However, I have discovered a tactic that works for me in situations like that. I ask the other person to tell me something about himself. If it's a couple, for example, I might ask them how they met. That's good for another twenty minutes. The thing is that I find people endlessly interesting. I can keep myself occupied for that twenty minutes trying to figure out what makes them tick (no pun intended, Minnie).

[Minerva Agatha Zipporah]

No pun intended? *pouts* But I LIKE puns!

You could say... A good pun is its own reword

[Echelon]

Indeed, that was insightful! ^-^

It interests me to no end that the more one studies the difference of humans the more they discover similarities.

I can relate to both of those feelings. Minnies and Manty's. However, instead of getting uiet or uncertain when I'm concerned I tend to simply way what I'm thinking.

I think anybody who has ever had a real time, or prolly PM chat with me either online or IRL probably knows that this is my general mode of operation. Saying what's on my mind.

In Montys situation I probably would have gone on about how I'd never been a big card person, however it was the fact that I got to spend the day with my friends that was the real gift, that it made me feel loved and important. And then everybody would go "awwww" which people do to me a lot. XD

Same emotions, same concerns, just a different course of action following them. I wonder what accounts for the difference in response. Mine is because I'm embarrassed and worried that if I don't say what's on my mind i might end up offending some1.

Tock why did you want to leave? Because you were uncomfortable there, or because you wanted to do something else at home?

Echelon, Echelon, Echelon *feels sounds wash over his tongue, and slip through his lips* Echelon, Echelon, Echelon

Ah, small talk. I love it, and feel that small talk is the corner stone of any relationship! One can sit down and speak of their deepest feelings all day, but only does it matter when inserted into a a broad scheme of smaller conversations which give a general framework for the persona's general demeanor. Small talk is wonderful.

How, Monty, do you differentiate between small talk and those questions?

I actually would consider asking a couple how they met as small talk. And I do that too. I tend to be a wealth of questions. o.o

[Minerva Agatha Zipporah]

Echelon, I love you, but if you every say "some1" instead of "someone" again, I swear to God I'll smack you one

Asking people how they met, making small talk, and worrying you'll be embarrassed or uncomfortable, are all a big part of Social Penetration Theory. The less we know about the people around us, the more uncertainty we have, and the less predictability we have about how they'll react. The natural reaction in this case is to seek more "penetration" (no, not THAT kind, you pervs!). What it means is delving deeper into getting to know someone. Small talk is good for that. And the reason you're embarrassed or worried is because you don't know enough to be able to predict the person's thoughts and reactions. Getting deeper, coming to know them more, reduces your uncertainty about the situation, and increases your ability to predict the results of future interactions.

Anselm does this by asking How did you meet? He's delving for more information, learning more about the people, and thus increasing his ability to predict and reducing his uncertainty.

Echelon does this by offering his own thoughts, which prompts the other person to respond in kind. This reciprocation helps keep the back and forth action of the conversation going. Essentially, by offering his own thoughts, he is prompting the other person to react in whatever way they will, which increases his ability to predict things about that person.

Me? I was uncomfortable because I didn't know the first thing about this person. My uncertainty was high, and predictability was low. The only way to get past this is to start probing for information, or offering information about yourself. But in my case, my fear of the potential negative response made it hard for me to talk. I tend to expect not to be liked. A lot of this "uncertainty versus predictability" really comes down to the potential for future punishments or rewards in a situation.

What do I mean by punishments or rewards? Well, the punishment could be this person reacting badly, or looking at me like I'm strange. That's a big punishment for someone who fears negative social impact. What are the rewards? There weren't any from my perspective... I didn't expect to meet this person ever again. When you expect to interact with someone again in the near future, the reward would be more comfort and predictability about that future encounter.

Though everyone has their own views on what the punishments or rewards could be, these are just my perspective.

So, my discomfort and desire to go home came from the fact that with such high uncertainty, I feared the likely punishment of a negative immediate response, and I didn't see much hope for a future positive reward. So I played it safe by keeping quiet. When I keep quiet, I don't get the negative response.

[Montaine]

It is seriously ridiculous how you keep saying things, Eche, that match precisely what I think. You say you are worried that if you don't speak your mind you might offend someone, I worry that if I do speak my mind I might offend someone. Gods forbid if we ever raised kids together, they'd either be the most well adjusted, comfortable people ever or insane socially active misanthropes.

And I understand the necessity of small talk as a social lubricant. You can tell a lot about a person by the direction aimless conversation takes. I'm good with new people and natter inanely with the best of them, should they so desire it. But the sign that you're a true friend of mine is if you and I can sit silently together and still be comfortable, which would be a lot harder for an extrovert, I guess. My best friend for the most part of a decade and I can happily talk or be quiet as the mood takes us.

I guess when it's a true friend, who you've known for such a long time, the social qualms and quandaries that cause our respective introversion or extroversion just fly away. As Minnie said, the uncertainty would be minuscule and the predictability would be sky high so we wouldn't be worried about offending them. As such, an extrovert would be happy in the knowledge that their friend wouldn't take offence and be able to be silent around them, and an introvert would be confident also that their friend wouldn't take offence and be able to talk freely.

I think the reason the Internet is so good for us is that it levels the playing field. Conversations can be stopped without need for excuses, or started on whims.

[Pash'nar]

I'm on the fence when it comes to the whole introverted/extroverted game. I've never been able to really be one, or the other. Maybe I'm a little insane? Perhaps. Some of those fun disorders run in my family, but I have yet to appear to be a real candidate for anything requiring medication or shock therapy. So, we're good for now.

That said, there are times where I really need to be with people. I'm energized by a crowd, by a meeting with strangers, by a new client, by something like that. It makes me feel refreshed, and I walk away from that feeling good about myself and about my new friend.

However. There are other times that interacting makes me tired. Exhausted. And, honestly, I'm horrible at maintenance when it comes to friendships. I'm easily distracted, find myself buried under a project, and forget to call you and hang out with you, not because I hate your guts but because … I'm distracted.

It's a weird push and pull because I recognize my need for people but I don't always have the will-power to pursue relationships. I guess, for me, part of that is my childhood and my history, and my unwillingness to put forth the initial effort in maintaining a relationship is a test—if you really like me, you'll pursue our friendship. If you don't, you'll dump on me and disappear like everyone else.

Is that true extroversion? Probably not.

I, like Monty, prefer a small circle of friends. I am still friends with someone I met when I was 5, and they are more like my sibling than anything else. I have another long-term friend from 8th grade. And my husband. And maybe a handful of other people. That is, honestly, my ideal. Small, insular, knowing. The larger webs of connection are great people and I enjoy their company, but it's the few I keep close that I value most.

I agree that the internet levels the playing field, though I often suffer from more social anxiety online than anywhere else (can you tell? NO, I guess not). There is no tone of voice here. It just is. Plain text. That's hard for me, coming from a family life that was full of subtext and implication, but I will also say that the internet has been a good friend to me regardless of my fears.

[Minerva Agatha Zipporah]

I think the reason the Internet is so good for us is that it levels the playing field. Conversations can be stopped without need for excuses, or started on whims.

="Pash'nar"]I agree that the internet levels the playing field, though I often suffer from more social anxiety online than anywhere else (can you tell? NO, I guess not). There is no tone of voice here. It just is. Plain text. That's hard for me, coming from a family life that was full of subtext and implication, but I will also say that the internet has been a good friend to me regardless of my fears.

Both of these things are covered under Computer Mediated Communication (or CMC). Despite the distance involved, a lot of researchers theorized that we can develop just as strong and deep of a friendship online as we can in person (it just takes more time to get close is all). It's a lot easier because the potential risks are a lot lower (if someone bothers you online, just click the 'block' button).

It's also easier in some ways because time isn't as much of a factor. In a face to face conversation, I get very uncomfortable if I'm on the spot and can't think what to say. I have a GREAT deal of trouble putting my thoughts in order so I'll be understood. I have a very hard time getting people to catch the real meaning behind what I'm saying. Online, however, I can take the time to think, sort through my thoughts, and rearrange them if need be. I can go back and edit to change what I said before I hit 'Submit'. It's a feature of CMC that is absent from face to face communication. In many ways that makes things easier, since you're less likely to say something stupid and wind up with your foot in your mouth, or you can take the time to calm your emotions before replying to an email, etc.