[Discussion] Evil Gnosis' and Evil Itself

[Satu]

How have I missed this discussion?! For a week too! Thanks for bringing this up Goss.

I believe the number of good/evil Gods & Goddesss should be about even. Each has possitive marks and negative marks, and I'd like to see both used.

I think mind control should be left to the deities and mods as it is too easy a thing to get out of hand with immature players. But how much fun would that be to roleplay in small doses!

Natural disasters, plagues, and famine please!

And I like to think of characters as having a lot of grey areas. Most people I know are not just good or evil. A good PC can commit an act that could be considered evil and terrible, but because it was done for all the right reasons does that change what it is called? Or a negatively aligned PC could in turn say kill an opponent brutally, but that death is really a benefit for others. Does that make it good? Does it change the label? I don't know, that is probaly a whole other discussion.

How people judge the actions and events would certainly be according to their own viewpoints and alignments and backgrounds. Also, people change through their actions and the events around them. I think pcs can and should change tremendiously too. Yay for change!

[Isikais]

There are alot of options for developing evil characters/evil in the world. The truth is, however, true evil is an advanced concept for any PC to portray. For me evil for the sake of evil is as irritating and trite as "bottomless violet orbs" or "taut supple bosoms". It's been done. It's hollow. It's cartoonish. I like my evil to have context, to have purpose, and to have a tragedy to it. Here's a funny example of just such an idea: ======= Interviewer: Mr. Super Villain, Why do you take pleasure in seeing the hopes and dreams of your fellow Mizaharians smothered? Mr. S. Villain: Well, you see the truth is I always wanted to be a psychologists, but the schmucks at Zeltiva University wouldn't give me a spot in class because I was too poor. Interviewer: So you went about destroying everything around you? Mr. S. Villain: Well, not at first. First I studied on my own, then I systematically went about pitting them against eachother, then I drove them all insane...and I would have succeded if not for that Konti Seer and her trusty Kelvic. Interviewer: And that's when Rhysol charged you hunt and kill Konti and Kelvic? Mr. S. Villain: Yes. And any other privileged snob that thinks his University certificate makes him some sort of super-hero. Interviewer: Now that's evil, folks! ======= Ok, so yes, it was a quick sketch, but you get the idea. I think evil can be fun, and a GREAT method for making an environment truly riveting. What is important is that there is a balance. Not to be all "Star Wars"y, but with evil should come great power, and quickly. With evil also, should come great loss and personal suffering. The difficulty I can see immediately for evil characters is that to be evil often requires a character to be both powerful and clever (the more clever the less overt power is needed), and that is tough when we all start out at the same level. A weak character of good disposition can help out and associate with others easily. An evil character of the same power level is not going to have an easy time of it, associations requiring that all evil be hidden or subtle until such time as they are powerful enough to do something overt and not be outright slaughtered. Ok...that's the end of my rant on Evil PC's. Finally, as to whether or not we need more or less of Evil Gods? I say BRING EM ON! I love the gods as plot devices. The more Gods the better. The ST's of Mizahar use the Gods sparingly, and incredibly responsibly. I think this makes it ok to keep developing additional deific creatures. The only reason there would be "too many" gods is if the gods were becoming "commonplace" and regular creatures. This is NOT the case in Mizahar by a long shot. So, MORE MORE MORE! Also, however, I think it is important to flesh out what is already there. I like the idea of gods so focused on their idea that they are sometimes good, sometimes evil. I say run with this, let there be more amoral absolutes in the world of deities. Also, let's get to the darker side of some of the existing ones. I like Yahal, the scorned lover, Syna's burning wrath, Makutsi's raging tempest....you get the idea. ~Dro

[Gossamer]

We need more rants like that... I found it enlightening and entertaining. And I totally agree. Its been really interesting seeing what mizaharians think and want in terms of conflict and flavor.

[Jaquise Emittere]

Crap, forgot to click on other. I know magic screws up people a lot of the time. Why aren't there any infamous mortal wizards who went crazy? we have one god with that description, but so far for all the paranoia that's out and about with magic screwing up the only bits I've seen with this being the case is in Jaq's own history. Bring on the psycopaths with the ability to warp the very fabric of reality to their own liking! Illusionists making crowds see monsters out of the most terrible nightmares. Leechers walking through a city and draining every person they come across. Reimnancers causing earthquakes and setting fire to buildings. Voiders take a whole town with them a giant whole into the void. Summoners unleashing beings beings the illusionists wished they had thought of using. Magic rampant across the world! Chaos spread amongst the citizens fleeing from powers they cannot comprehend!

[Gillar]

I personally am working on development of fragment monsters and relics. In addition, I just introduced the new Goddess of Murder and Pain, Krysus along with her Gnosis, Vexation. That said, I am still not fond of adding too many more Gods and Goddesses however a few more evils can't hurt. Alvinas are a good direction however their gnosis, if they even grant any, is and should be limited in scope. We have the amazing potential inherent in the whole Monster category. Relics, Moldlings, Undead, Fragments and Valterrics all offer an unending supply of evils to mix things up a bit. Perhaps these creatures, the more powerful of them, could grant limited forms of gnosis as well; powers and abilities with a different source than true gnosis but with cool affects nevertheless. It could even take the form of a single ability with a power level at the highest point that is no greater than a second mark of true gnosis. As far as the Zith go, they currently do not claim any particular deity as their own however I elude to someone or something infiltrating Zith culture and spreading its influence. This may or may not be the same winged-being that the Zith see as being responsible for their creation during the Valterrian. Could it be a Valterric? I would like to start using the Zith as a greater evil threat as they are comparable to an infestation that spreads across the land. In addition to the more supernatural evils, I think playing up more on the natural dangers of the wild lands of Mizahar would be great for expanding evil. Barbarian raiders and warring tribes, highwaymen, slavers as well as plague and famine. would all thrive in a post-apocalyptic land.

[Nosferious_Kainetu]

Personally, I find that this may be an interesting thread in the "Future" and the reason being is simply because of the current stuff we already have. We have a number of things already planned out but a lot, and I put an emphasis on LOT, of things not given detailed description. Before planning out the addition of another few hundred gods which no one really uses except a select few, and setting up another selection black and whites on the grey scale, we should focus solely on specifics for now.

Case in point. The pycons have a god, but we know nothing about that god. There are some skills all but forgotten, unfilled and providing only a slight description about "What" it does and not "How" it is done leaving it to the minds of the user whom in all honesty may have no clue where to start and pull something out of nowhere by bending over for a few seconds. Sorry if that seemed crude but I found the thought funny.

The only thing that "should" be added soon would be the dangers. Large groups of bandits in certain territories posing threats to the regions, and maybe "EVENTS" where an attack is launched upon the city walls calling players to arms with the knights or guards of the region. Barbarians who find themselves as superior or perhaps Myrian raiding parties who would no sooner see the other races fall before them. New monsters as well since in all honesty, I doubt the entire population is inhabited by a single bird called a glassbeak, a number of undead who we have to real description of, and a rainbow that cuts people.

Of course I have no right to rant on about this, having made no donations to assisting such creations however, the fact remains that we are finding an underdeveloped world that needs to be better developed before laying out new blueprints for developing it. This is my thoughts on the matter and I hope that someone finds it insightful, and if you are angry towards me for it, perhaps from crude manners of speaking, or because you actually are one of the people who are working hard to develope the place. Please feel free to send me a private message and I will read each and every word you have to share with me, hopefully of which would make you feel better.

[Tarot]

Nosferious, I just wanted to mention that our development model is largely a "write up as needed" spiral method. Why? Because our resources are very limited and when we write something we'd rather 1) address a need or 2) develop something we enjoy (preferably both ). It's already amazing that we managed to write hundreds upon hundreds of articles in just nine months while moderating and running the game, but a lot of the time we leave "hooks" behind for future development. They are there for people to get curious about, ask questions about, and when there's a certain interest level someone will step up and flesh them out: sometimes a Founder, sometimes the player who's most interested. For example, we've had a recent influx of Pycon players, and I'm confident that the Py-ken martial art will get developed when they start asking and brainstorming about it.

In general, we write what we need (and want). We've identified a urgent need for evil in-game antagonists, and that's what we are focusing on right now. The purpose of this thread is to understand how we can best address the need; more gods, more monsters, etc. If we had to flesh out every red link in the wiki before tackling this... well, let's just say we'd be booked full for the years to come.

[Dusk]

As part of the "consequences" line of thinking, I think there should be a lot more people who are paying the cost of overgiving when they use magic. I think every time you get into a physical altercation, unless you're fighting a doorknob you should get injured - people almost never walk away from a fight unscathed, and especially not anyone at the Novice or Competent level. Come to that, I think anyone using a Novice skill to do something that they could get in trouble for should get in trouble for it more often. XD

Mainly, people should be getting their butts kicked for being n00bs. My characters included. As Doc about that time he got stabbed for cheating at cards. Badly.

[Ialari Pythone]

In-game evil and more of it is indeed a necessity as it creates conflict and conflict drives story. Along with more environmental evils and dangers as well as a bit more focused evil among the divine, I think that evil player characters are also a good addition to the game as it can add a bit of unpredictable fun for other players and storytellers alike. It can also offer storytellers a valuable resource in the expansion of their own stories, quests, adventurers and so forth. One of the drawbacks of this however is that it takes a good amount more effort to build an effective evil character as everyone else will want to be the one to take that evil character out. Not to say that it takes a character with high skills and abilities to be an effective "evil". Creativity, use of pawns, and developing a clear set of goals (as opposed to just doing evil to be evil) can all lend a hand in placing lesser skilled characters higher than they otherwise may be.

Anyway, that is just a few thoughts I had on evil. I could go into greater length but then that would compromise my own aspirations