[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Evalin on September 15th, 2012, 11:14 pm

OK my posting for Eva has been, in a word, lacking. Why is that? Well real life has really thrown a wrench in the works for me, and quite honestly lately I just have not felt like writing at all. I suppose I can't complain too much since my life is pretty dang good compared to a lot of people, but sometimes I really just don't feel like pushing through and forcing the posts out. Ok pity party over, so what are my plans for Eva this fall?

WORLD DOMINATION!
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All joking aside that is one of Eva's side goals, but one that will most likely not be followed through for a long time. So then what are my short term goals? Well for one I want to go for Vexation! Yeah Eva with the power to cause increased amounts of pain. Sounds fun right? I would provide a picture of a torture scene to illustrate what I see for Eva, but trust me when I say you don't want to see any of the pictures I found when looking it up. Instead enjoy this picture of a puppy snuggling a kitten :)

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So in order for me to achieve the above goal I need to start putting down on paper things that make Eva worth the Goddess of Pain's attention. Yes yes we all ready know that Eva certainly fits the bill, but I must have a hard copy to show "Hey, this is my character torturing and having fun do it, do you think Krysus would be interested?"

Well then here it is, goals for Fall 512!

1) Finish threads that involve torture or murder
2) Apply for Vexation
3) Work on summoning, and finish up my world write up
4) Somehow get projection before Rayage!
5) Steal Nira's body
6) Ok maybe not steal her body but at least get some of her blood
7) FInd some way to throw a kink in the knights plans and make their time in Sahova even more difficult (Come on, Eva has always been on Sahova's side :P)

In addition to the above goals I have some other goals that do not necessarily have to be done this season, but I still want to see them accomplished.

1) Research antimagic, specifically how to take away a person's reimancy powers.
2) Try to master Reimancy, and attain the element wind
3) Really make Eva into a villain, someone hated and feared for what she can do (not just by force of might)

Other goals I have? Well they will come out soon enough haha.
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Wretched Aura: As a Wretched One Evalin possesses an unnatural aura about her that causes unease in those who get too close. It can come as a prickle of the hair on the back of the neck, a sense of 'wrongness' about her. How people experience it is different depending on their personality and how they handle the unnatural and unknown. Animals tend to become more agitated, more easily sensing how wrong Evalin is and often avoiding contact with her.
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Evalin on September 15th, 2012, 11:41 pm

What is Evil


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Evil- Profoundly immoral or Malevolent (adj); Profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, esp. when regarded as a supernatural force (n).

That is the definition I found when I looked up "Evil" on google. Profoundly immoral seems to be the link between the adjective and the noun. Well once we have this definition I think we should ask ourselves, what is "profound?"

Profound- of a state, quality, or emotion) Very great or intense (adj); The vast depth of the ocean or of the mind (n).

To be profound is to be great or intense, having to do with a great depth of mind in the noun form. Thats pretty heavy stuff, especially when we now look at what "immoral" really means.

Immoral- Not conforming to accepted standards of morality.

Please note that it says "accepted standards of Morality" and not simply just "standards of morality". Well what does that mean exactly? Well exactly what it says. To be immoral is to not conform to what is currently believed to be moral.

So lets put this all together given all of our definitions. An evil person would be a person who is greatly/intensely nonconformative to the accepted standards of morality. If we really want to start getting tricky with word play we can define an evil person as a "Nonconformist".

Nonconformist- A person whose behavior or views do not conform to prevailing ideas or practices (n).

This term above is synonymous with "dissenter", which comes from the Latin word dissentire which means "to disagree". To "dissent" means to differ in opinion, or disagree. It also means to withhold approval or assent.

Again lets define Evil with the following definitions. You are "evil" when you greatly/intensely disagree with the prevailing ideals. What does that tell us exactly? Well if the prevailing ideal is that you should slaughter your youngest daughter at her coming of age you might be considered "evil" if you strongly or intensely disagree with this practice.

So what does all this tell us? Evil is perspective. Evil cannot be defined as truly black and white because it is not a black and white term. The definition changes depending on when and where it is used, and the overall culture. I want Evalin to be an Evil person, so in order to do that she must go against/disagree with a prevailing opinion on what is moral and what is considered "good" by societal standards. The question is, what exactly is "Evil" in Mizahar? That answer might not be as obvious as you think.
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Wretched Aura: As a Wretched One Evalin possesses an unnatural aura about her that causes unease in those who get too close. It can come as a prickle of the hair on the back of the neck, a sense of 'wrongness' about her. How people experience it is different depending on their personality and how they handle the unnatural and unknown. Animals tend to become more agitated, more easily sensing how wrong Evalin is and often avoiding contact with her.
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Minerva Agatha Zipporah on September 16th, 2012, 1:45 am

First, as resident etymologist, I heartily approve of this analysis and breakdown.

If you're looking for feedback on "What is evil in Mizahar?" I'll gladly offer my two cents worth. My character is heavily leaning towards evil as well, and just needs a few nudges to make it all the way into that camp. So I've given this some thought.

To a degree perspective will change based on where you are. Based on your definition of going outside what is generally accepted as moral behavior, in Sunberth it's not evil to murder someone with barely any cause, but it is evil to use magic in any form. Whereas in Zeltiva magic is only distrusted not outright feared and hated to the Sunberthan extent, but murder is considered evil.

So the first question I'd ask is, within which specific city or culture do you want to be evil? That makes a huge difference. In the Spires it's evil just to cut down a tree.

Now if you want to be "all the evil, all the time"... Well, then you've got your work cut out for you.
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Evalin on September 16th, 2012, 2:37 am

Haha thats exactly what I am trying to figure out now Tock. Evalin is to be my grand archetype of evil, and by that I mean I want her to be recognized as Evil all throughout Mizahar. Well I know of one way specifically she would be. Evalin wants to kill Lhex, God of Fate. If she succeeds that could potentially throw the entire world out of balance and disrupt Ukalas as well. Would you say that would qualify as evil on a worldly/godly scale?

Also, I would like her to be evil to characters as well, on an individual level as well. I would like your opinion on that. So a new question, what would you consider an overall "evil" that is accepted by nearly everyone in Mizahar? What would you say nearly every character would consider Taboo? Not that Eva would necessarily do it, but just a thought provoking question.
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Wretched Aura: As a Wretched One Evalin possesses an unnatural aura about her that causes unease in those who get too close. It can come as a prickle of the hair on the back of the neck, a sense of 'wrongness' about her. How people experience it is different depending on their personality and how they handle the unnatural and unknown. Animals tend to become more agitated, more easily sensing how wrong Evalin is and often avoiding contact with her.
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Minerva Agatha Zipporah on September 16th, 2012, 3:25 am

Well first, I'd like to show you something I use when I make villains for D&D. The Villain Workshop, by Rich Burlew, creator of the Order of the Stick webcomic. It doesn't strictly deal with "how to be evil," but it DOES deal with how to make a well-rounded villain with depth and character.

As for killing a God (setting aside whether that's 'possible' in game, since that's up to the big bosses, so we'll just assume for sake of this discussion that it's the journey/attempt that count, not whether you succeed), I don't even know if quite everyone would call you evil for that. People in Ravok might praise you for taking down one of Rhysol's 'rivals' (I'm not sure if Rhysol and Lhex specifically get along or dislike each other, but it's just an example). And someone like Tock wouldn't see it as different than any normal murder.

As for your question, "What nearly everyone would consider evil?" Let's also assume that there's always going to be some individuals outside the bell curve that will be exceptions. Nothing is 100%. But if, say, 80-90% of people say that's evil, then it would definitely count as evil. That way we can discard the stray exceptions, the complete lunatics, and others whose views don't represent society as a whole.

So by that definition, what would I think counts as 'nearly' universal evil?

I'll make a general list of things that I think would count. I'm not TOO familiar with cities like, say, Lhavit, Alvadas, or Zinrah, so there might be exceptions to these. But based on the 80-90% rule, I think we could discount a whole city if need be (for example, there's only 900 Symenestra in the world, most of them in Kalinor. Their views are surely VASTLY different from human morals, but since 900 people in the species represents less than 1% of the world population, we could discard them for statistical purposes).

So based on that, here's my basic list:

1. "Mass slaughter without purpose." This goes beyond simply murder, since plenty of places, like Sunberth, you can get away with murder just fine as long as you are justified (even if the justification is as simple as getting into a verbal argument and being pissed off enough to shank a bitch, yo). But even in the Sunberth player's guide, they say 'hapless slaughter' will cause the mob to revolt. Furthermore, while some people can be rallied to a 'cause' that leads to mass slaughter (like real life examples of the crusades or the holocaust), you'll only have 'support' in that if you convince people there's a reason for it. Most people might see it as evil, but if you rallied an entire city to a religious war, ethic cleansing, or something like that, then your supporters don't think it's evil. Even if we consider that you need to basically brainwash people with propaganda for that support, that's still a certain (twisted and deranged) percentage of the population that thinks it's 'for a good cause'.

But if there is no purpose? Or, let's say, no purpose that isn't blatantly and obviously purely selfish? That makes a difference when you're talking about evil being a matter of 'perspective'. Perspective could be used to convince a group of people something is for a good cause, but if you're blatantly, openly declaring that this isn't to further a cause, this isn't to achieve some religious ideal (like how Rhysol's followers, in their fanaticism, don't think they're evil), and this isn't for anything other than your personal power, then odds are everyone will say you're evil.

To further this idea of "Mass slaughter without purpose," I'd say you need to equally kill any race, species, religion, or sex, as long as they're in your way (or just to experiment, or just for fun, or whatever). Then no one can take sides, no one can say "Well, she's only killing kelvics, who needs 'em?" If you kill members of every race, all races would see you as evil. If you kill people from any city, all nations could see you as evil. And so forth.

I think that about covers that. So what else can I call "overall evil"?

2. "Unrelenting cruelty to children." Children are precious. While some people will beat their kids, or be okay with child labor, and so forth, I think that in most societies there's a certain line with kids that once you cross it, that's that. Again, this would need to cross all races and cultures, since racism could overpower some people's morals and make them think it's okay ("If she kills all the Zith babies, that's fine, wipe the species out before they grow up to be evil monsters!").

This can, of course, be hard to write. Tock murdered a single child in a thread, "for a good cause," and it was one of the hardest scenes I ever wrote. So actually playing out mass murder, torture, magical experimentation, and so forth on children might not be a line you want to cross. But, from a purely philosophical perspective on "evil," this one tends to be up there in all cultures.

3. "Treason, blasphemy, and sacrilege." Another one that needs to be "universal" to work as evil. Followers of Rhysol would be fine with you burning down a temple to one of the 'good' Gods, but would hate you for burning down their temple. Since every region has different deities they primarily worship, you'd basically need to violate all of them. And to cover the non-religious people, you'd want to add in violating the laws, customs, and traditions of cities themselves. Burn flags, destroy monuments, ruin places of tradition and worship. Show no respect for any body of authority, be it political, religious, or cultural. Declare that no one has authority over you, be it the temples of the Gods, the Sailor's Guild of Zeltiva, the 'high and mighty' Knights of Syliras, or the Svefra and their "Nal'lyeo". Be an equal opportunity discriminator, and tear down anything that anyone holds dear. Especially if you're doing it not to start a revolution, not to educate people about a cause, not to encourage people to think for themselves, but simply because you hate these pathetic semblances of authority and think they deserve to be destroyed just because they exist.

Of course, there's always the question of "Why go through all that?" Evalin wants to kill Lhex, but why? What motivates her to want to do these things? It will make more sense in-character if there's a good reason for Evalin to be the bringer of death and destruction. But whatever the reason, make sure it applies to anyone and everyone, so that they are all victims and all have reason to hate and fear you.

4. "Acts of excessive and unnatural cruelty." People might make excuses for killing people in war, but what about burning down fields of crops to make innocents starve? People might understand why you'd murder someone for being in their way, but what about skinning them alive and pulling out their entrails inch by inch? Leaving their body hanging from a flagpole in the town square by their intestines so that everyone can see what you did? Once again, you need to ask, "Why is Evalin doing this?" If the answer is "Just to scare people/show how evil she is", then that's not enough. But if she has a reason, even if it's a reason that only makes sense to her, then that makes a better story.

I don't know a lot of what motivates Evalin to do what she does, so I'll use Tock as an example. She's actually capable of doing just what I said, skinning someone, pulling out their entrails, and hanging their body out like that. But why would she do it? For knowledge. Knowledge about which parts of the body someone needs to survive. Which ones she can remove before they die. Do people need skin? Why do we have it? If I take it away from someone, would their body adapt and survive? Etc etc.

Her reasons, to anyone else, would be seen as the ramblings of a lunatic. But she HAS a reason, and that's needed for making the story work. Thus, if Evalin has a good reason to perform such acts, you can make the acts extra evil by all standards of morals when you perform the acts in a way that's seen as unnecessarily cruel, excessively violent, gruesome, and so forth. If someone gets in your way, don't just murder them, but make an example of them. Use them to spread fear in the hearts of others.

That's all I can think of for now. Some of that might need some refinement, and a lot of it depends on what fits Evalin's character and personal style. Motivation is key. Which is something covered in the "Villain Workshop". It's one thing to want to kill a God and cause mass turmoil "just because you're evil". But it's another thing entirely if you do it for a reason that makes sense, in character. So to quote Tock again, she'll do anything to build the magic city from her coma dream. If she has to one day try and destroy a whole entire city on Mizahar to make room for the one she wants to build (again, not that such a thing is likely to work in-game), she'd DO it. And she'd see it as no different from cutting down trees to make way for a new building.
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Xalet on September 16th, 2012, 4:33 am

I'm not a real deep thinker, but I just wanted to make a mention. In the real world, people spend lifetimes debating the grayness that is evil. In Mizahar, if you go by the Lore at least, there is some form of 'Evil' that is a concrete thing. You don't get to 'get out of it' because of your personal perspective. There is a God of 'Evil'. There is a Goddess that bestows powers that work at their fullest extent only on 'Evil' creatures.

In a world like that the question I've often wondered is 'When does the Evil wash away?" Once you're Evil are you always Evil? Like many of our favorite fantasy ex-Assassins, can you redeem yourself over decades by goodwill alone? Now that may be an instance of perspective. A ex-innocence killer Nuit becoming the man of the hour for over 500 years might not get burned to death by the holy flame sword of Priskil, but by Xalet's standards, they're still Evil. In fact by his standards the only way out is 'true redemption', which is killing themselves.
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Nira'lia on September 16th, 2012, 7:25 am

Evalin wrote:5) Steal Nira's body
6) Ok maybe not steal her body but at least get some of her blood


Ohoho, well this is going to be interesting... :P
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Minerva Agatha Zipporah on September 16th, 2012, 2:19 pm

5) Steal Nira's body
5a) Use her body to make sweet love to Eri
5b) Break Eri's heart and leave him a broken shell of an Eth


There, I fixed that for you...
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[Evalin's Scrapbook] A Summoner's Guided to the World

Postby Evalin on September 16th, 2012, 10:16 pm

Haha wow I didn't expect such a detailed answer from you, and actually everything you said is really good advice. I suppose I should start thinking of Eva's reasons for doing things. Hm, and in fact I am not so sure Eva even considers herself "Evil" per say, though as with Tock she will do just about anything to achieve her goals. Im going to check out the workshop you posted and see if I can really define some of Eva's goals then, and maybe at the end I might find that she is not really "Evil" the way I wanted her to be. As quoted from Princes and the Frog, I just gotta dig a little deeper.

In fact lets see if I can do it right now. I think I will take the things that you described as "evil" to 80-90% of the population and see where Eva sits in all that.

"Mass slaughter without reason"
Well first and for most Eva does not do this. This is for the simple reason that, in her experience, meaningless slaughter brings unwanted attention. Does that mean she wont cause mass slaughter? Oh heck no. She definitely would, especially if it meant that she would be a step closer to her goals. Needless to say Eva holds very little value for the lives of others, though there may be a few special cases. That is yet to be seen though.

"Unrelenting Cruelty to Children"
Where as this might be difficult for me personally to write, for Eva children are just another stepping stone on her way to power, as is made obvious by her taking the child's body. Im finishing up the threads where she gets this body currently, and it will be quite obvious that she does not hold any more value for children than for adults.

"Treason, Blasphemy and Sacrilege"
This one is an easy one for Eva actually. Quite honestly her reasons for wanting to kill lhex are rather childish, but to her they make the greatest sense. She blames "Fate" for giving her a sickly body and a half life not even worth living, and so when she is turned by Rayage she immediately wants to destroy this evil monster that would force people to be certain ways. She asks what right do others have to be free and healthy when she could not be? Really very selfish and childish, but it is her driving force. After that Evalin views the gods themselves as a means to an end. If she has to kill another god to get to Lhex she would, and burning down a temple would not be given a second thought. For this one Evalin has a very strong reason, one ingrained into her very reason for living. Gods or no gods, she wants to see Lhex burn for his supposed cruelty. For good or ill that is.

"Acts of Excessive and Unnatural Cruelty"
This is a point where I am not sure just yet. Evalin does enjoy watching others bleed and suffer around her, and her mark from Uldr pretty much forces her to commit some of these atrocious acts. If she gets Vexation as well it will further add fuel to the fire as well. Though for, personally, I would say she does not care for excessive cruelty. Do what has to be done the simplest and quickest way possible. That is one of the rules I follow when writing for Eva. Not to say that she wouldn't if given the chance, but when push comes to shove she would simply destroy the person before they have a chance to know what is happening. This often includes the families of these individuals as well.

Well does all this say Evalin WONT be evil? No not at all. It just means that I need more character development to decide what and how Evalin would act in certain situations. Quite honestly I have not written for her enough to truly understand her mindset and personality, but that will change soon. Who knows, Evalin might become one of the most hated and feared PC's on Mizahar, but that is left to the hands of Lhex I suppose :P

@Xalet: Yeah I am pretty sure Xalet would consider Eva evil haha.

@ the rest: Yes yes that is perfect Tock, and Eva's plans precisely! Get the konti and the eth all lovey dovey and then shatter their hopes and dreams forever! Mwahahaha (though make them kiss first ;))
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Wretched Aura: As a Wretched One Evalin possesses an unnatural aura about her that causes unease in those who get too close. It can come as a prickle of the hair on the back of the neck, a sense of 'wrongness' about her. How people experience it is different depending on their personality and how they handle the unnatural and unknown. Animals tend to become more agitated, more easily sensing how wrong Evalin is and often avoiding contact with her.
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Postby Imass on September 16th, 2012, 10:52 pm

Excellent discussion.

Xalet brought up an excellent point! I want to take it a step further. Evalin defined Immoral in her post:

Immoral- Not conforming to accepted standards of morality.


Now lets look up morality. Here is what Stanford.edu says:

The term “morality” can be used either

1. descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or

b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

2.normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.


I think that if we take the time to define morality in Mizahar, I think we will find a much simpler answer.

To define Morality in mizahar you first got to look at exactly where does our code of conduct come from? Does it comes from Gods? Do they dictate what is moral behavior? In our own universe, the existence of gods who decide morality are demonstrably false in my opinion.... However, in mizahar, gods are REAL. This single different fact changes everything. It sort of makes our real world definition wrong for Mizahar in my opinion. There is a god of chivalry and justice actually exists. He even decided that those moral values important enough that worship should be devoted towards it. If the gods chose what morality is in Mizahar, then there is little room for interpretation.

I take the example of Sunberth and the god Rhysol to explain. The pantheon deems Rhysol and his ways to be evil , so following any of his ways is in fact evil. There is no way around it. A follower of Rhysol in Sunberth would STILL be considered evil morally despite being in the lawless city. Sunberth is anarchy, which is only the abscence of authority... if morality comes from gods then it is seeming absolute in the eyes of typical human brains, and thus the morality in sunberth, too would be absolute.

I hope this makes sense....

Long story short, I purpose that the dictonary's definition shouldn't be used in Mizahar, because it assumes one thing: gods are not real. We need to decide what morality is defined as in the game, then we can start to fully answer your question Evalin.

IMASS

EDIT: Grammer and added a sentence or two
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