PvP, Social Mode

[Orion Michaels]

So after digging through pages upon pages of Q&A and other discussions, I don't feel like this has been brought up. Normal PvP seems simple enough. My weapon is higher than yours, so outside circumstances not withstanding, I win.

But what happens when it comes to skills which don't really have a straight cut way like that. Things that come to mind are persuasion, seduction, negotiation, and things along those lines. Let's say an expert in persuasion is trying to talk someone into doing something. The PC's player doesn't want to do it, but really, their character doesn't have any ranks in persuasion, so what should happen? I mean, if a reimancer with 90 in the skill throws a fireball at you, and you don't have shielding or crazy acrobatics or something, you're gonna get burned. If a master of seduction wants your pants off, well...?

I worry about taking control away other players, and I worry about resisting things with my own PCs because I don't want to have them happen to them, but this is a game, too, so the SP that people have worked hard to earn need to be respected, right? It just kind of feels like when it comes to social skills a player has to agree to be affected by them, where when it's combat, people are (generally) more accepting. At least from what I've read.

I'm interested to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

[Gossamer]

Hi Orion- Great question. When PvP happens, it really boils down to how willing or unwilling people are and how into the spirit of the game they might be. We actually have a big article in the Wiki about it under Player_vs._Player or http://www.mizahar.com/lore/Player_vs._Player. Sometimes people will want to murder another PC and the other PC is unwilling. That's when a moderator has to step in. However, if both players are reasonable there's no problem handling it internally and without a mod stepping in. The bottom line is... if you don't have a skill you can't use it. If your being hypnotized you either give to it or have a reason why you won't. If the PC using the magic doesn't have casting time, ignore it. If they do and can focus.. respond. Basically play the best you can with what you have. But play according to your character sheet. That's why they are there.

[Orion Michaels]

So even with social skills it should work the same. I've read the article before, and it focuses on the combat aspect of things. I figured it should work the same for non combat, but it bothered me a little the thought of someone getting a moderator involved when trying get someone to do something because their skill is so high. If Orion entered into negotiations with someone who was vastly superior at the skill, I would expect him to get a raw deal, regardless of the fact that I, as the player, know it's a horrible one.

I guess that all dives into how much people want to get immersed in the game. And to be honest, I don't even have any examples of this happening, I can just imagine people calling on their SP when it's advantageous to them, but when it's something they don't want their character to do, ignoring the other person's skills.

Thanks for the answer!

[Gossamer]

Thanks for asking about it. Its a hard situation, but the problem is that social skills are skills we award on Mizahar as well. We are lucky in that no one has made a serial killer or mass murder pc yet so literally unless someone has wanted to retire a pc with a death, we actually haven't had any player kills at all. Now that's not to say we won't. I know PCs that hate each other IC and I know people that dislike each other OOC and if ever the two paths shall cross, I expect war. It's fun to think about. I just really hope and really anticipate everyone being mature and playing to the best of their abilities. Orion strikes me as someone who plays really well within his PC's CS, so I don't see problems with the people that ask these sorts of questions. The problems will come, when and if they do, from the people that make the 'badass' assassins straight out of the gate and won't play within their CS skillset (and you know it by the description of their histories where they have murdered whole villages etc).

[Vaewe]

I'd like to throw my two cents in if no one minds, because this is a super interesting question.

One thing that complicates social interactions is that the skill that might being used on a PC is not necessarily the same skill that would counter. In combat skill in a sword is used for both offense and defense, but having high seduction skills doesn't necessarily mean it is harder for you to be seduced. It's not like when you make Competent level in seduction you are able to ward off any and all pick-up lines from a level below you. If anything you might be easier to seduce, because I'd imagine someone with high seduction points is more amiable (in many cases) to those sorts of situations.

I think a good way to think about this might be by using the description of how hypnotism works. You can't really hypnotize someone and get them to do something they would never, ever do. If you're trying to persuade a pacifist into murdering your enemy you'd better be maxed out in persuasion, hypnotism or have some really good extenuating circumstances to explain why a character is going totally against everything they've ever said, done or thought before. Of course, being skilled in persuasion or seduction might mean you don't get shooed away or slapped instantly, perhaps you even gain a little ground each time you try, but I don't think it should be used to justify making characters go through heel-face turns.

But of course, people should still pay attention to the CS's. I just think there should be a good in game reason for everything the PC does. Whether it be listening to the PC with 100 points in persuasion because they are just that dang good or not because it goes against everything they've ever believed in. Written well both should be plausible outcomes.

Of course, if your character doesn't have strong feelings about something then there isn't really a good reason for them not to sleep with the super sexy seduction master.

Just my opinion. It's probably a bit repetitive of what was already said.

[Xalet]

I think approaching a social situation with an open mind is a very good thing. It would be boring if we knew what was going to happen to our characters all the time, always. So maybe you hadn't planned for your character's pants to be coming off, but that doesn't mean it's the end of days for the character. It could actually end up being a heck of a thread. I think the only way it would be a clear cut issue of non-enjoyability is if player A was set on making player B miserable (the player, not the character). In that case, it's the same issue as any PvP situation, though obviously you hope everyone is mature and considerate enough for that not to happen.

[Orion Michaels]

When it comes to seduction I don't totally agree. I feel like an expert is likely to see through the pickup attempts of a lesser skilled user. Whether or not they bite, we'll, that's up to the pc, right? I understand what you are saying, though.

As far as the hypnotism analogy, if you look at the actual seduction skill, it absolutely states its ability to bed the most chaste of folks. It's really a pretty powerful skill as written.

I totally agree with you about paying attention to someone's CS to make sure it works. I have everyone I thread withs CS up when I'm writing and have that heavily influence my actions. It's just more clear cut with weapons. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that someone could put the time to max out a skill and have someone be able to defeat it so easily.

Xalet, I'm completely in agreement. An open mind is a must. I feel like people can get so locked into something they lose out on chances.

I guess in the end, I just want people to respect other pcs skills while at the same time everyone respecting the efforts and concept of each individual character. It's not like I'm saying there is a huge problem with this, it's just something I know I've seen time to time, and its much easier to adjudicate with combat vs social.

On a side note, everyone may as well start with 100 in observation because I swear everyone, myself included, notices everything.

[Razkar]

On a side note, everyone may as well start with 100 in observation because I swear everyone, myself included, notices everything.

That used to really bug me on my old site. That when a player RPed, he ended the paragraph or sentence with words to the effect of "and kept his eyes open for anyone watching at all times" or "watched the hands of everyone present" or "and was careful not to make any noise as he moved". It got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Not to mention utterly unrealistic: very, very, very few people are completely aware of their environment. It's impossible to see all the angles, all the time.

I think the skill sets are only useful if they're taken as a) a guideline, not a be-all-and-end-all and b) they are used in conjunction with others. You may have maxed out five skill sets. Good for you... but what's to stop someone walking up behind you and splitting your head open with an ax? Or burying a crossbow bolt in your back from across the room? Observation might help there, naturally, but attacks like that come so quick and backhanded that they're almost impossible to defend against.

I dunno. Still a n00b here so I'm working it all out, but it just seems like cunning, strategy and writing ability would be more useful.

[Gossamer]

*Watches you watching everyone else watching everything*

Also, I doubt very much that a hot avie bearing female PC could seduce a male pc who likes guys. It might be me but don't some factors have to already be present?

[Imass]

Let me just reiterate the points made in this thread in my own words, because I agree with most of them:

It is all about the willingness of the two writing partners. We are not a computer video game, we are writing site. I think the key is that both players communicate well and write true to their character and their CS (skills/lores). Let the RP carry the story, rather than preconceived notions of where you want it to end. I think if we do that and follow the PVP guidelines for all skills, we will be good.

Although I do see where your getting your frustration from Orion, it is important that we pick each other up when we mess up through RP and OOC chat! If I were you, I would take the time to talk to the other PC about it and try to improve both your writing Its all about remaining positive!

That used to really bug me on my old site. That when a player RPed, he ended the paragraph or sentence with words to the effect of "and kept his eyes open for anyone watching at all times" or "watched the hands of everyone present" or "and was careful not to make any noise as he moved". It got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Not to mention utterly unrealistic: very, very, very few people are completely aware of their environment. It's impossible to see all the angles, all the time.

In response to your first point, I think it possible to make a plausible character like that. In all respect, have you meet anyone who has spent 10 year plus in prison? They are always on the look out, looking at hands, feet, eyes, every single damn face around them (i.e anyone with paranoia really). If he was playing the character as if his unusual observation was second nature then I would see the objection, but I think it would be really cool to have a paranoid character