The Writer's Workshop

[Tarot]

Welcome to the Writer's Workshop!

In this forum, we talk about the writing aspect of fiction in general and Mizahar in particular. Discussions may range from technique, plot devices, language to characterization, style and editing. Feel free to talk about any form of writing, be it a post, a novel or an epic poem. You can use this forum to share and ask for writing advice, to hear opinions about your style, or to commiserate on how hard it is to write a good battle scene. Just remember to keep all criticism constructive!

[Malia]

Okay, my problem/concern is probably a bit extraordinary, but: Has someone else ever tried to write a novel in a language that's not their natural one? I've decided to try it for Mizahar, I've done a lot of English writing before (as you can partially see at the IC boards), but I find myself struggling with individual style and grammar again and again. Of course it is simpler to write in my natural language - but I've experienced that I can reach more people when writing in the most popular language of the world.

Perhaps someone has similar experiences? Maybe I just need someone to tell me that I'm not alone.

[Tarot]

It's not as uncommon a problem as you may think. Actually, I'm exactly in the same boat. It's been years since I wrote a piece of fiction in my native language, Italian. If I did that today it'd feel totally foreign. Rhythm and sentence structure tend to be different, I've noticed. Translators usually do a good job of making the transition feel more natural, but you can spot a translated text a mile away if you pay attention.

To me writing in English is just another part of the challenge. I totally know what you mean when you worry about style and grammar. It's all about the dreaded "I know what this verb/phrase/expression means when I read it, but I wouldn't think of using it when I write". In the end, it boils down to practice and vocabulary. We foreign speakers have a smaller repertoire of words (especially verbs) compared to a native user, so we need more generic words to describe the same concept. Instead of writing the right, specific verb we resort to the same old power words ("go", "get", "be", "take") and slap them next to a few descriptive adverbs. People understand what we mean, but we disrupt the concise flow of literate English.

Slang and accents are our other problem, but I just avoid using them altogether.

One thing I can do for you is point out that if you are worrying about this, you have come a really long way as a learner. When you train with tigers, you tend not to notice your own improvement!

I think there are greater obstacles to writing a novel than the second language. There are plenty of differences between a post and a novel in terms of style and exposition. Posts are often built around character thoughts and feelings, but putting so much insight into a single book passage would bog it down a lot, just to name one. The way the narrator works also needs adjustment... I find it very fascinating, actually!

[Nor]

Ohhh! Can I drop in with some commiseration...

on how hard it is to write a good battle scene.

A problem I regularly run into on other sites are that is a lack of communication. Even with an OOC thread many RP'ers seem to have a problem discussing who should win in a battle. This seem to usually unending battles that kill the thread.

I was wondering on whether anyone else has encountered this or any other problems like this when trying to write a battle?

[Tarot]

In my experience, I think there are only two ways to make a PC vs. PC battle work in a RPed thread.

1) The writers know each other well, and are writing for the story, not to win the battle. Then they can figure out how it's going to end. I think battles should be short and sweet. Historically, most swordfights were over in a matter of seconds.

2) A staff member steps in and moderates the fight from an unbiased perspective, using experience, tactics and writing skills to decide what happens. Usually, the mod will leave the defeated party some way to get out of the thread with their life... but sometimes death is a possibility or else no-one will take the fight seriously.

In Mizahar, you can go either way, but you need option 2 to kill another PC unless they give you permission to kill them off.

[Nor]

Plus in Mizahra we have the skill system. Without something drastic (but plausible) or permission, there's little chance of a fight going on forever.

I never like touching the "D" subject. If a writer gives me permission I'll do it, but only if I have too. In my opinion writers need to know from the beginning if they plan on killing off their character.

[Laeraix Cerys]

Well, I have an issue too. (who doesn't?). Maybe we should just call this the Tarot question and answer thread, hmm?
Well I'm horrible with detail. I read certain peoples posts and I'm absolutely blown away by the amount of detail they can put into something simple like a doll or a city street. I tend to gloss over the details of all that. I don't know why, but I've never been much of a descriptive person. I prefer dialogue and characterization. I really don't know what to do about this. I feel like it's on of the biggest shortcomings in my writing and I want to fix it. I just don't know how. Any pointers?

[Kavala]

I like to take a moment and close my eyes before I post.

Say your standing in a street...

I like to build the scene in my head - what the street looks like, the cobbles beneath my feet, the clouds in the sky, the flowers in flower boxes.. the textures, shapes, smells of the situation I'm in. Then I start to write. All that seems to just flow outward after that. I know some people just like dialog, but for some reason that is rather... hard for me to post one or two lines of response without detail for. It seems empty, almost as if the person is focusing just on their character...

Like a sketch on a blank sheet of paper of just a person, no background, no hints of where they are, etc. It's not wrong, not at all, but it just feels different from what I like. I much prefer pictures with 'scenes' and I think writing is a lot like that.

Try visualization first. That might help.

[Tarot]

I agree with Kavala in that it's really a matter of personal taste. There are 'sensory' personalities who have an open relationship with their senses and have easy time visualizing; and 'intuitive' ones who'd rather link concepts instead. I am very much an intuitive type and I'm not so good at description, myself - action and dialogue (internal or external) come far easier to me. Most of the time I barely have any idea what my PC is wearing, probably because I don't perceive it as important... and yes, it's a self-centered viewpoint as you are not doing the other person a favor, but we all have our strong and weak points.

I think detail is good, in moderation. There is such a thing as too much detail, though, which makes people skim-read your posts to get to the juicy parts. For example I wouldn't put two heavy paragraphs of description one after another unless I was moderating a thread and the situation really called for it (say, entering the Hidden Temple of Playerkilling). I wouldn't do that as a PC. I'd rather use the same space to explain the PC's train of thoughts.

If you wanted to describe a scene, I think you should mention things in the order the PCs would likely notice them. Start with the things that would immediately attract their senses, and move on to subtler ones. Don't stow them all in one place but scatter them across the post(s) to keep the reader from just skimming a single paragraph. Some description, a line of dialogue or a thought or character motivation, then a little more description. It's not easy making it flow, but it's better if the description is tinged with the character's own viewpoint, bias and personality. If I'm running after you and there are twenty paces between us, they'll probably look like a yard to you and a mile to me.

[Laeraix Cerys]

Thank you both so much! I'm going to try to visualize and see how it works out for me.
Also, Tarot, I laughed when I saw that you wrote you don't even think of what your charatcer is wearing because I'm the exact same way. When I saw that on people's character sheets I was like 'Dang...clothes... bah... who needs those?'
Anyways, thanks again. It does make sense for me not to go too Stephen King. The tree was brown, the bark seeped ooze from every scratch... for 10 pages. King did that once. It was bad.
Also, the ideas about what I see and seeing them first, I get it.