Pavi: A Lively Linguistic (Rather Gesticular) Discussion!

[Banickle]

Greetings Mizaharians! So the title of this thread pretty much says it all. I am looking to have a lively conversation about the gesticular language known as Pavi, which may or may not lead to a better understanding and, perhaps, a more unified presentation of the language across the board. What is Pavi? Well, the Lore states: The Drykas speak a language called Pavi. Outsiders swear their animals understand this language as well. Common is not uncommon to be heard spoken throughout Drykas encampments as well. Pavi is a very visual language, having verbal portions and a great deal of vocabulary that is gestured. For that reason the non-verbal portion of Pavi is often called Grassland Sign. Outsiders find Pavi very difficult to learn because the whole of the language of Pavi includes both the gestured and spoken parts. To say something in Pavi, one often accompanies the spoke form of the language with a gesture. For example, "I love you." spoken in Pavi might be accompanied by the sign for affection or the sign for anger, worry, frustration, etc thus changing the meaning of the words spoken. Whole conversations between hunters can often take place in grassland sign, but it is definitely a short hand emotional emphasis type of signing and can not mimic whole sentences. Pavi has no written form, because the Drykas themselves are great lovers of poetry, storytelling, and theater and thus oral traditions. They do not often carry books because they find their portability undesirable for a mobile culture. Most of their history is oral as are their stories and folktales. Now that sounds fascinating! Doesn't it? But what exactly does it mean? Is Pavi similar to Sign Language? Secret : Or how the Hebrew Alphabet is translated in the following example? Secret : Or is it more akin to Italian gestures? Secret : Is it all of these combined or none of them at all? How do you visualize the language when you use it in a post? I know for myself, I tend to use it in a rather vague way, adding in a statement about "a hand gesture" here or "a sweeping of the hand" there. I could certainly strive to be far more creative than that, but I always have this nagging sensation that I will be doing something horribly wrong and, therefore, I keep it simple. So, let me know your thoughts, opinions, questions or concerns. Whatever! Feel free to lay down some examples of how you have used the language or, if you are in a thread where Pavi is being spoken, tell us how the other player described the language. Did it work for you? Did you picture it a certain way? Did you give it any thought at all? Let the discussion commence! Banickle

[Vanator]

This is a good topic Nick. I had been so long since I read the lore on Pavi, that I had lost sight of how much gestures played a part in it. Thinking about a rational reason why sign would be incorporated into a spoken language, it doesn't make sense to have a sign mimic every word...if you are speaking them, why parallel a stream of signs? I see the gestures as perhaps an element for emphasis, or to support significant words or concepts, not so much a fluid signing that accompanies every word spoken. Like, a sign might be used for certain verbs and nouns, like a very basic language that could even convey some messages without words. In the oft used example "I love you." Love is a significant part of the message, maybe there is a sign for that. Thoughts?

[Banickle]

I agree, Van, a word by word gesture could get to be a bit much, unless a Drykas is speaking Grassland Sign. Then it would be only gestures and no words. Therefore, there could be additional signs that represented certain words - such as, strike, disarm, and kill - or whole phrases - such as, take the man on the right - if a group was hunting or in battle. Now, going back to the core language of Pavi, as I just mentioned in chat, I see a Drykas saying something like, "Hello," but as they say it, they put a hand to their lips and raise it to the sky if they like the person, and they put a fist to their lips and lower it to the ground if they dislike them. Something along those lines. Another nuance could be that they use their left hand/arm, which is closer to the heart, if they like or know the person, and they use their right hand/arm, if they dislike the person or they are a stranger. Thoughts?

[Khida]

I'm going to try not to ramble too much here, though it's surely inevitable... I don't actually see that Grassland Sign is quite like any of the examples posted. The first two strike me as both too stylized and too... small. Simple? Maybe what I'm looking for is formal. Already the inclarity creeps in! The third is probably closer in essence, but... just isn't an analogy I'd choose, I guess. I think the first key point in the lore is that Grassland Sign doesn't stand alone; it's a complement to spoken Pavi. Its normal usage strikes me more as accentuation, emphasis, quick messages; simpler and stronger and... let's say more basic than spoken words. Any verbal language is rife with synonyms, not-quite-synonyms with subtle differences in connotation, homonyms, layered meanings, verb tenses, word genders -- complexity, to put it concisely. Not to say Grassland Sign itself isn't and shouldn't be complex, but I think its role is to underscore the most important points, to cut to the chase elaborated upon by all those syllables. Of course, that makes a strong grasp of Sign all the more important when, say, haggling, to tell that vendor what you really think of their shoddy overpriced junk. But I digress. If I look at the signs Khida has been exposed to in threads, whether addressed directly to her or used to others around her, they tend to the simple and straightforward. Apology, friend, confusion, greeting, wait, and so on. Granted, some of that can be ascribed to the relative lack of development on Grassland Sign, and some to other characters' recognition of her as a nonnative, but I think it also captures the contrast between signed and spoken Pavi. All those extra bits get dropped and the heart of the message shines through. The other usage of it that I imagine is adding shading and nuance to spoken words. I think Banickle's last post starts to get at that. But I imagine that being done with a comparatively simple core vocabulary rather than an elaborate codex of signs; in that respect, I agree more with the heartward/opposite hand example described. A spoken language might have tens to hundreds of thousands of words; I imagine Sign might have in the hundreds to low thousands at most, with interpretation often more contextual than absolute. In that vein, I also imagine it as being very idiosyncratic in some respects -- with different 'subaccents' informed by one's posture, the manner a gesture is formed, speed, flow vs. jerkiness, etc. Also subject to people making up their own signs and personal jokes, as people do, even more so than with spoken language. Perhaps each Clan has its own distinct flavor. I digress again. Sadly, I don't have a character who's even remotely fluent in it (yet)! So I can't highlight any of my own usages. I don't have any handy RL exemplars either. In external fiction -- which I'm going to bring in for sake of inspiration and example -- I've seen only one instance of a complementary spoken-and-sign language pair that I thought was done really well, and also used as extensively as Grassland Sign sounds like it should be: pilots' hand-talk in the Liaden Universe novels, particularly the Theo Waitley sequence. Here are a few examples from Saltation that I think capture how I would see Sign fitting in around Pavi's everyday use better than any description I could ever write: "If you find you're falling behind, speak up." Here she stopped in midstride, appeared to look at all the students at once and emphatically finger-yelled GET HELP. Her hands fluttered into a more subtle motion... she might, Theo thought, have been reminding herself of where she was in her presentation — point six. "Do you have that analysis?" Peltzer's voice was dulcet, while his fingers said soon soon quick soon. [Rig:] "New contract, huh? You got yourself a Liaden writing those things now?" Mayko scolded Rig with severe fingers: serious talk no joke read close consider. The hand-signs were even faster than they had been when she walked in, and now punctuated in a way only hand-talk allowed. Sneak. Steal. Hide. Wrong. My ship. My students. Know better. Theo stared at him, hard. "This is true? All of it?" Her hand-signs alternated between full power and one hundred percent. One of the things about the way hand-talk is portrayed throughout these books is that it's used as naturally, and sometimes as subconsciously, as breathing; sometimes more so than spoken language. At times it weaves a sort of second narrative alongside spoken words; other times it's used as emphasis and punctuation. Sometimes it's used without conscious direction, expressing the gist of the character's thoughts -- speaking "aloud", musing "aloud", in a sort of brain-to-hand-sans-filter way. After all, we think less consciously about how we stand/move than about what we give voice to. Anyway, lots of words on screen now; I'll stop. Hopefully some of them approach coherence!

[Banickle]

Khida, you bring up some excellent points and your examples are really good, too. I can easily see the hand gestures being more subconscious in nature - taking little to no thought, as you said, in comparing them to how we stand or hold our arms and legs - and, yes, I agree that they should be subtle, yet meaningful. However, they should not be too personal in nature or, I should say, personalized. What works for one, should work for all. So, that being said, can we start to come up with a few universal gestures? I would not mind building upon the heart-arm vs. non-heart-arm concept or, perhaps, the distance a hand is held away from the heart, mind, face, eyes and/or mouth plays a part in all of this, too. Thoughts?

[Colt]

In addition to the points Khida brings up, it seem that the Sign could also be used to express very simple concepts; "yes," "no," "wait," "this/that," etc. Perhaps it could be combined with the more abstract side of Sign to convey more complicated concepts; for example, if you signed "yes" and made the posture/sign for unsure, that would be saying something like "yes, maybe." This would make Grassland Sign a vehicle for rudimentary conversation, but a great deal of nouns--tree, horse, spear, etc--would be left unsaid.

[Kayiri]

I've always viewed Grassland Sign as a hunting language first, with the conversation aspect of it being relegated to a secondary position because of that.

Due to the nature of the Sea of Grass, any signs made would have to be big, so as to prevent possible misinterpretations due to distance (similar to ground-to-air signs, like these. I feel as though it'd be able to communicate concepts relatively well within that context, with pre-described gestures for things like numbers, type of animal, direction they're heading, physical condition of the hunter, etcetera.

Were it to be used in conversation, I feel like it wouldn't be so that laid out hunting language as it would be gesticulations, similar to Italian in movement but not in meaning-- that is, nothing with a set meaning, but rather gesticulations based on the tone of the statement.

[Gossamer]

Khida nailed it on the head. Grats to that explanation. It's spot on.

[Banickle]

So Khida, where would you like to go from here? Any thoughts on a few universal gestures that we can turn into something a bit more official?

[Khida]

Universal gestures. Hmm... I'm going to write this in quasi-train of thought (i.e. more rambling), so everyone else can hopefully follow my reasoning throughout. I think a set of "universal gestures" should consist of a few critical 'basic terms' and also highlight some Drykas-specific concepts. After all, language shapes and is shaped by the way a culture approaches the world, so any good reference lexicon should illuminate the culture. Basic terms should include things like hello, goodbye, yes/approval, no/negation. Things like the Web/family/connectedness which are central to Drykas culture might also be good to include. Given that I know I’m going to write a lot, I'll just stick with those for now; we can as a group add more. Let's start with hello. As I was thinking about this on the way home today, it seems to me that 'like' and 'dislike' as was discussed before aren't actually the most important things to convey in a greeting. There are undoubtedly nuances which would reflect one's liking for another, but what I come back to is connection. Drykas. The Web. More than with any other culture, I think any greeting would have this at its core -- we are Drykas together. So I would make it as hand over heart, for we-are-connected. Perhaps with the shape of the hand to indicate degree of connection -- closed fist for same Pavilion, first two fingers for same Clan, four fingers for any Drykas. I don't think it's merited to subdivide further, because those are the divisions of Drykas culture -- and besides, then we get into meticulously counting fingers in a gesture which might flash by quickly. None / half / all are easy to distinguish. And I see it as four fingers for Drykas, not the open hand, because the Striders are their four-legged kindred. I imagine that open hand over the heart would be used to an included non-Drykas, such as a married-in spouse or a bonded Kelvic. Perhaps also children who aren't bonded and windmarked yet; maybe only children of a different Pavilion. It might be permissible to be sloppy and use open-hand-heart to a Drykas of different clan, but it's decidedly poor form; it could also be taken as an minor insult, like being obnoxiously called "child" when you're definitely not one. Towards a stranger, then, 'hello' would be the open hand next to the shoulder, well away from the heart. The rest of Mizahar might equate that with a wave, but a Drykas knows it to mean we-are-not-connected. Used to a Drykas, I imagine that same gesture would be a definite (and nasty) insult -- so one could use it to greet a hated enemy also. The drawback of the hand-heart gestures is that they're relatively hard to make out at a distance. An acceptable variant when on the Sea might be a raised fist by the shoulder or overhead, without gradations for pavilion/clan connection; and again, open hand for hailing non-Drykas. Easier to see, still differentiates like from unlike. There's a tangent which occurred to me as I was thinking through this; I'll toss it in here too, as any good lexicon also needs a few insults and curses! As all the signs I've mentioned above hinge on 'connectedness', I imagine unconnected two-legger -- or 'petching unconnected two-legger', or any other variant thereof -- to be a pretty common slur towards those unfortunate souls not part of the Web nor graced by a Strider bond. Even if they ride a horse, they're still not Drykas, and therefore two-leggers to one minded to be derogatory. I envision this as the last two fingers of the hand flicked out a couple of times at waist or hip level. Much as if shaking something off -- or dismissing a nuisance. Has the bonus of being a sly gesture a non-Drykas might never clue in on. (And uses the last two fingers because first two are used for greeting in-Clan.) And... I've written a lot without even getting to approval or negation. Goodbye might be as simple as a repeat of the greeting gesture, perhaps with a bow of the head as well-wishing. In the interest of not posting a larger wall than I already have, what are people's thoughts and opinions on all this? And other suggestions for the lexicon?