Swear Words: Why we should do away with the list.

[Graderson Elderstock]

Now, before anyone makes any accusations, I'm fully aware of my low post count. I'm also fully aware that might not sway any of you from prejudging my words for this accusation. Regardless, I'll put it bluntly: There is absolutely no reason for us to have a separate set of swear words for the lore. I first encountered the idea when I wrote a thread and a staff worker, Joker, made me aware that we had a separate list of swears for Mizahar, which I found bizarre. I looked at the list and was underwhelmed yet overwhelmed at the same time. Let me address some of my contentions.

First, let me outline some practical implications. When we come to Mizahar we bring our swears with us, but then we are asked to leave them behind. Instead, we must go trooping through a list if we want to use an appropriate word. Instead of a writer being able to come in and freely flow thoughts, they must reference an incomplete list so they can adapt their style to this odd misshaping of language that has taken place here. This particularly puts a hamper on someone who desires to write in language that is swear heavy, which is a stylistic choice. This hang up is especially overwhelming considering the already steep wealth of lore that a writer must reference if she wants her character to interact with the world soundly. The lore of Mizahar should be deep and rich, but that does not mean it shouldn't user friendly.

Second, there is the issue of theme. I personally believe that having a separate set of curse words for Mizahar adds nothing to the feel of the stories. In fact, this separate list of swears weakens it. The word "petch" does not and will not measure up to the word "fuck". Natural English speakers share a deep, inherent history with the word fuck. They remember the times of grade school when they risked a scalding for saying it, they know that such words are for the bad mouthed, they know that if you use it loudly in public you will be looked at, and they know where and when it is appropriate and when it is not. They do not share the same relationship with petch and they never will. Petch doesn't even sound offensive, and fuck beckons that from the go.

My last criticism is that the idea is incoherent. We write in English, why can't we have our characters curse in English? It seems ultimately very arbitrary. Is it that the common language of Mizahar is entirely similar to English aside from the curses? That's a ridiculous assumption, I know, but it seems to ultimately be the only reasonable assumption as to why we have a separate set of swear words. Also, the fact that there are "universal" curse words seems to be a cheap cop out to make up for the complexities of development that natural curse words go though that Mizahar could never experience. It simply does not make sense to write in English yet curse in another language.

One last quick aside. The list seems to be full of curses that try to draw on the complexities of the culture they derive from. For instance, The Akalak use the word "venhrehk" to describe the flawed or unskilled. This doesn't really qualify as a curse in my opinion. A swear tends to be some kind of general exclamation or general derogatory term, it is entirely different from some remark about ones capacities or disposition. The word nigger isn't muted from television because it's a swear, it's muted because it's a remark about someone's race that denotes some kind inferiority. Venhrehk shares more in common with nigger than it does with asshole, and, while venhrehk might be a significant word to throw around in Akalak culture, it does not make the word asshole any less useable in an Akalak thread.

This criticism is in no way refined or complete. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this, but I can't see any reason for us to put further restrictions on a writer's stylistic choices. This is a weird rule of thumb for Mizahar that I have not experienced in other kinds of fantasy works. The restriction of real world swear words places an undue burden on both writer and reader and inhibits both of their enjoyment of this lovely site we have.

[Graderson Elderstock]

Also, mods, if this isn't the correct place for such a thread please redirect me.

[Gossamer]

Just a quick heads up.

According to our Terms of Use, excessive profanity is not allowed on the site either IC or OOC wise. And while that might be a bit vague as to what constitutes excessive, it allows us to step in when people are being crude for the sake of crudity and not for the sake of the story.

That doesn't mean, however, the use of profanity is NOT allowed in threads. It is. And whether you choose to use real world swears or Mizaharian Swears... the choice is up to you. There's nothing written that says you must use swears on the swear list. It was something players want, utilize, and we decided hurt nothing. In the real world, swears also vary from region to region. There are several uniform ones worldwide, but by and large demographics and language can be isolated and telling.

The same goes for Mizahar. So all in all, your point is somewhat invalid. If you want to swear, feel free, but realize - be it Mizaharian or IRl swears - we can still step in and put our foot down if a staffer feels it is excessive.

Goss

[Devi]

Hi Graderson,

You asked for thoughts so here are mine! I find your idea that a writer would need to go ‘trooping through a list to find the appropriate word’ a little beside the point, given that you could apply the same logic to any of the other lore articles. If I know my character is going to be living in Syliras then I need to go looking through the lore for information about Syliras. If I know that my character is a doctor then I need to read up on medicines and plantlife specific to the world here. I appreciate that every writer has their own style and that you have to adapt a little when writing in someone else’s pre-created setting. However I think that writing here is as restrictive or as free-flowing as you make it.

At the end of the day a swear word is simply a word with connotations applied to it by the culture that uses it. To give you a perfect and simple example, when my brother and sister were much younger they started pestering our parents to tell them naughty words. My dad told them that the absolute naughtiest word he knew of was “bathtub” and that they should never say it to other people. Naturally they started running around shouting “Bathtub! Bathtub!” with my dad telling them off for using such a ‘bad word’. Point being, that was just a joke but despite that, for ages they honestly believed that bathtub was a word that you shouldn’t use in polite conversation purely because the society around them told them it was wrong.

“Nigger” has emerged from a culture that values a hierarchy of race and skin colour above all else. “Venhrehk” has emerged from a culture that values strength, skill and discipline above all else. If your only intention was to insult someone then there are a multitude of words and descriptions that you could use without ever having the need to refer to a curse. The point of using such words as the above is because you want to direct a very singular opinion at someone, fully aware of the devastating reaction it may cause. “Venhrehk” may have no meaning for you personally as you have no history of using the word and society hasn’t taught you that it has offensive connotations. To an Akalak however the word would be a great insult because their society is centred on those ideals. To call him an “asshole” would be rude; to call him “Venhrehk” would be an insult on a much deeper level.

So if you hadn’t gathered it by now I’d soundly disagree with you . I think having this level of detail in a fantasy setting makes it all the more immersive. It’s a huge part of what makes Mizahar a living, breathing world because you’re not squeezing and shifting the concepts of our world to fit it – it has its own set of rules, customs and lore (right down to its own set of customised swearwords!). If I could download a fluent set of languages into my head then I’d happily chatter away in Common and Tukant. As it is, it’s pointless to expect an entire player-base to learn an entire new language just because that’s what you would expect from a separate world. Does that mean that we shouldn’t encourage its unique aspects simply because we can’t apply the same to everything?

~Devi

[Graderson Elderstock]

I was told that you cannot use real world swears IC by staff. If that's not the case I have no quarrel.

[Vizayas]

Founders are 'chief of staff', in a way. Their word is good and Gossamer claims there is no written rule for replacing IC swears, so you may use them however you wish. It is, however, possible that a grader 'may' find your thread more interesting, immersive, and detailed if you use cultural words and slang such as Miz swears in your writing. On the reverse, there is nobody grading your threads that will find them distasteful because they contain Mizaharian swears.

It's point of view. You like it, or you don't.

[Ssezzkero]

I don't want to jump too deep into this discussion, but I can hardly take your point seriously. Your idea to rid Mizahar of its original swear list is not only selfish but closed minded. You may think that "petch" and "fuck" don't match up because we, in the English language, have a history with our f-bomb but not with mizahar's p-bomb. Hey guess what, Mizahar is a completely different world than the one we live in. Our characters have a history with the p-bomb.

Also, I'm assuming you only speak one language, English, when you say that insulting someone is not considered a swear. In many other languages, there are swear words that stand for an insulting phrase such as "useless or unskilled". Swears, like the rest of a language, is about culture. You are comparing our English culture too closely to Mizahar, and I don't think you understand they are separate things. On that note you may want to evaluate our own language a little closer. The swears "whore" or "slut" represent the term of a "promiscuous and/or loose person", which is also an insulting phrase simply shortened to one word.

That's where I beleive you are closed minded. Where you are selfish is your idea to do away with this list at all. Like Goss said, if you don't want to use them, don't. It's your decision and that's cool. Freedom of speech and all. But just because you don't want to use them, doesn't mean that the right should be taken from everyone else. I happen to enjoy the fact that I can add small phrases and words from my PC's culture into my writing. I think it adds depth and history that I could not achieve with just the English language. I understand that you are new and the lore is overwhelming, but don't diss on our fun because you find it confusing.

I value your opinion in thinking that original swear words (and by extension I assume tidbits of Mizahar language that is also listed in various places) are unnecessary and confusing. I don't agree with you forcing your opinion on the rest of us. That's all I got to say.