Should people be able to start as Knights?

[Wystern]

In all honesty, it's easier to start out as one.

The thing is, the requirement are high, to say the least, and it may be appropriate to tell a player who started out at full to not go overboard with that 30 in archery(that they totally don't have).

I won't whine and complain about how difficult it is to train certain skills, everyone who starts out as one should have thought of that first. The problem is that the skills required kind of need a lot of player work.

A player starts out with 60 points, 65 if human. The collective whole of the skills requires 120 points total. I commend on Dimitri's success, and his being an unstoppable and loving, writing machine, but those shoes are difficult to fill.

As a knight, one just assumes he has those skills, but must actively work to get them. That makes it easier as the plots can get thicker and more important because big boys and girls can and have to do big things. As a squire, one needs to do a lot of just training threads. It would feel more like grinding, like a JRPG, that is made more difficult by requiring a writing capability. And with those training threads will come distractions, and contrary to popular belief, it's not easy to turn a "walk-talk-drink" thread into a "+5 Knightly skill one."

There needs to be a balance, because a timelock isn't fun to go through at all.

[Dimitri]

It also raises the point on skill levels. I know skills aren't everything but they are half the requirement of Knights. A person who starts as a full Knight will have squire ranged skills. How useful to the Knights is a person who can't keep up on his horse with the rest of the company? Or can't hit the broadside of a barn with his ranged weapon? If they are going to skip the squiring process to receive the benefits of Knighthood before they do the work to earn it, then they should be held to a higher training standard. The lore states 10 Knightly exp a season for Knights skipping the squire stage. Failure to do so results in lost wages or being stationed in the middle of nowhere to train. If a human starts as a full knight and allocates all points in knightly skills, he will have 65/120 required skills. To finish off the remaining 55 points, a knight could do the bare minimum and finish it in 6 seasons. Year and a half of receiving wages, quests, and other perks, without being up to snuff. I know not all knights do or will do this. Alevudra is going about this well, flashbacking before Knighting it up. Others will abuse it. I think the standard should be raised. After all, an under skilled knight is a knight who either dies, or gets others killed. Skills aren't everything, but can't be ignored either.

[Gossamer]

If people don't have the skill points, you can't EVER assume they do. They have what they have, period. I don't think its unreasonable or misplaced, if this entire debate is just about what folks make, to make pay skill dependent until the ranks kick in which are already skill dependent.

Seems like a no brainer to me. If a knight isn't doing his knightly work in thread, boot him out, have him robbed, steal his horse and armor.... any of that stuff is perfectly acceptable. Change the pay scale and make it retroactive and tell folks 'You caused this because of your slacking and reaping the benefits.' Other jobs don't automatically earn pay. Seasonal XP is awarded on the basis of threadwork done. The knights shouldn't be any different. But if this whole thing is about one or two individuals turning their back on their duties, deal with them separately and don't 'revamp' the whole entire knighthood because of it or prejudice everyone because of one or two.

[Ulric]

Wystern, I totally agree with you. In order to get the requisite skills, knights have to do lots of grinding. It discourages the weaving of tales. It's basically a "screw you" to talented writers who prefer to spend their time on threads with lots of character development, to excruciatingly boring, "I did this and then this and then this and something else happened and then I did this," type of training threads. It's not as if we've got a shitload of "undeserving" knights, or even knights in general. John Griffin is an amazing knight, even if his stats aren't up to snuff. In my opinion, the most important thing isn't a few numbers, but if you can play a living, breathing knight. If you can do that, who gives a shit?

If somebody isn't pulling their weight, send a storyteller to screw with them. It's not as if the knighthood is rife with fat, indolent louts pocketing money they haven't "earned."

I get tired of the whole skills discussion, to be honest. It's great to have them, don't get me wrong, but they mean next to nothing in the grand scheme of the game. Torc is crafting the All Key, a massively powerful artifact, without even having competent skills, and you know what? He can do that because he's an awesome writer. If people enjoy grinding, that's fine by me, but keep in mind that we don't have the same preferences. For me, it's the stories that matter.

[Dimitri]

The people who care are the ones doing the skills. The ones putting forth the effort. A well made training thread when written well can provide just as much character development as a long strewn out story. By your definition of skills, I could write my squire well enough to travel to Taloba and kill Myri if I so desired with my meager skill set. Skills exist and need to be respected as much as character development and stories. By choosing to ignore a basic principle of the game by making assumptions or writing around your character's flaws, then you are stepping into the realms of godmoding. If everyone else must write according to the skills, why shouldn't the "better" writers?

[Ulric]

Dimi, don't put words in my mouth. If I don't state that you should "use your skills as a guide," it's not because I believe in god-modding, but because I thought that was obvious. However, I probably should have explained the Torc reference. It's mainly because he's part of an epic quest, where for the sake of the story, characters are allowed to do some amazing things.

Basically, I'm reiterating some points Colombina made a while back, which provided a good perspective for me. I'm not implying that people are bad writers because they write training threads. I'm stating that I find those threads boring.

[Faroul]

Hey there! I'm new, so I admittedly don't know all there is to know about Mizahar yet, but I wanted to share my perspective as someone playing an older character (40+).

The majority of PCs seem to be young people in their twenties. There's nothing wrong with this - most writers here are young too, and people often like to play a character close to their age. If your PC is young, and you're also interested in playing a Syliran Knight, it makes sense to approach the organization as a squire.

But what if someone wishes to play an older character who is part of the knighthood? There are two choices: become a squire as an adult, or opt to play as someone who has already been knighted. This creates two different kinds of characters. A person who has spent their prime in another profession and turns to the knights late will bring a much different perspective and skillset to their work than someone who reached their prime within the order and now sits as a veteran. In my opinion, both of these character types are valid and interesting, and players should be allowed to choose which path they take, according to the type of role they prefer.

Now, I'm not saying that older characters should have any sort of special privilege. Nor should they opt for knighthood as a way to be an instant badass. Rather, I think the presence of older, veteran characters adds to the realism of the knighthood. Also, just as squire players see great fun in building up their characters and working to achieve prestige and glory, knight players might really be looking to take a leadership role where they influence up-and-coming squires, or pursue dangers that are mostly absent in a squire's life.

As far as I know, there's no ban on the creation of older, more established PCs. There's no rule that says everyone must play as someone just beginning to seek their way in the world. The Knights shouldn't enforce a restriction on that, either. Allow people the freedom to choose what they'll play, within reasonable limits, and provided they follow the rules regarding their skill points. If someone abuses it, it's easy enough to have a moderator intervene. Who knows, someone could come along with a brilliant idea that requires already being knighted. Leave the door open for them.

[Isette]

Actually, I think Faroul makes a good point.

Initially I voted for the start-as-squire choice. The very first roleplay site I ever joined had characters more or less starting from scratch. We had to work to get everything, and it was a lot of fun with the system we had. I suppose that made me biased. Since then, I've always liked starting my characters with nothing so that I can find everything I want for them in game. I love the story. I love the work.

I do second Faroul's opinion, though.

Now, I'm not saying that older characters should have any sort of special privilege. Nor should they opt for knighthood as a way to be an instant badass. Rather, I think the presence of older, veteran characters adds to the realism of the knighthood. Also, just as squire players see great fun in building up their characters and working to achieve prestige and glory, knight players might really be looking to take a leadership role where they influence up-and-coming squires, or pursue dangers that are mostly absent in a squire's life.

In light of that, I am changing my vote. Just for the record.
But I don't think you're a jerk, Dusk.

[Dusk]

I am so, so glad I started this thread. There have been excellent points on both sides, and it's awesome to me to see people getting involved and thinking about the game not just as a game but as a community. You guys rock!

I want to clarify that this didn't come about because of someone's actions, or because I was dissatisfied with players - this is something that I've had in my mind since I became DS, and with all the wiki revamps I thought it'd be good to bring up. Turns out it was, because you guys have shed light on some points I hadn't even thought of, especially Faroul. *high-fives the new person!* It was never my intention to limit role-playing options, but rather to make sure that balance and fairness was maintained. However, turns out my ideas might make things even more unbalanced. Which is why I brought it to the table and opened it up for discussion.

Tarot/Jen: Just as a separate question since the tangent's been brought up, do you think as Founders that the Knighting Quests shouldn't be modded, or that the Lore should be changed so that they don't occur at all (as in, initiation is just a ceremony and not contingent on any quest-like accomplishment)? Considering all the recent talk about how important it is to run modded quests to keep people interested and make the game epic, and the mandatory assignments for STs along those lines, I'm actually really surprised to hear both of you saying that the Syliras STs should be doing less modded adventures. Bit of philosophical whiplash for me. And note that I've been constantly saying the STs, not just the DS - there's no reason why the AS's can't run a Knighting Quest as it stands now, and it wasn't my intention to force all the quests into the hands of one person. So just clarifying if you do indeed thinks it's a problem to continue the previous policy of moderating quests for Knights, and if so what solution do you suggest?

[Gossamer]

Dusk -

I never once addressed Knighting Quests or whether they should be moderated or not or if they should even take place - for the record. I have never stated EVER that Syliras STs should be doing less moderating. I'm not sure where you got that, but I went back and reread my posts just to be sure. And nope. Never said anything anywhere near close to that.

In fact, I think the Knighting Quests should be ran, either as a flashback or as a current quest. I have no problems with who moderates it (AS's, DS's, Founders, Peers). The Windoak's task is a vital formulative roll for each Syliran Knight.