Skill's Overlap

[Aythar]

It's inevitable with a site that has this much lore, but tries to keep an open ended, freeform feel, that there would end up being a lot of overlap in skills. In some cases, a skill is literally an overlap of other skills, as is the case in Larceny, which encompasses Pick Pockets and Stealing. In other cases the differences are simply extremely subtle, such as with Intelligence vs Investigation, so subtle that in real life having one skill would often lead to having skill in the other.

Basically, what I created this thread for is to discuss the scope that Skill's cover. When creating my character, I initially wanted a swordsman. The problem, then, was how specific to make his ability to use swords. Should his skill have been specialized in the use of a katana, a specific Katana skill? Or perhaps I could be a little broader and just say his skill is Longswords in general? Maybe I could even make it more general and just say Swordsmanship is his skill? It would be a stretch, but I could even use Bladed Weapons as the skill, encompassing daggers and the like as well.

Personally, I think skills should be somewhere in the middle. Making the scope to broad, such as Bladed Weapons, looses the point of having highly developed skills. On the other hand, having skills so specific a character that is a master in the use of a katana but when wielding a longsword looses to a novice seems even more absurd.

Of course, a lot of my argument is redundant since Mizahar is a site where you can completely make up new skills if you wanted. I’m just somewhat of a stickler for structure.

My suggestions would be-

1.) Combine Investigation and Intelligence into a new skill, Espionage

2.) Get rid of the Pick Pockets and Stealing skills, as they are covered in Larceny

3.) Change Larceny’s description to exclude the parts about Stealth (trap avoidance, sneaking around, ect.) and Espionage (Knowing escape routes in advance, ect), and add those as related skills.

4.) Skills involving any sort of metal manipulation into tools, armor, ect are extremely overlapped. I would suggest breaking it up into (at most) two different skills, Blacksmithing and Metalsmithing, the former being the creation of weapons / armor and the latter being the creation of tools / art.

4.5) If you don’t agree with 4, then I think at least Blacksmithing and Metalsmithing should be combined and Armorer should be changed to Armorsmithing.

5.) Armorer seems like an unneeded skill since skilled leatherworkers / blacksmiths could easily create armor.

6.) Impersonation should be an advanced technique of Disguise and not a separate skill.

7.) Forgery and Calligraphy should be advanced forms of Writing, not separate skills.

8.) Locksmithing appears to me to be either a form of Gadgeteering or Blacksmithing, but I can’t say I know enough about it to say either way.

9.) Weapons… but we won’t go into the details.

I’m not sure I got everything. Actually, since this is all based on my opinions, I’m sure I also probably have things on this list that I want to combine but most people would see as significantly different. I’d be happy to do most if not all of the actual writing for any changes we can collectively agree are valid, I just didn’t want to waste a bunch of time writing a page for Espionage only to be told that there is indeed a significant difference between Investigation and Intelligence.

[Cayenne]

Hi Aythar, welcome to Mizahar, and thank you for your input!

The Founders have discussed overlap a lot, and our skills list is not complete nor finalized. That list was created to give people ideas about what they could do, and what sort of examples they could work towards.

Regarding your examples...

1. Investigation and Intelligence:

Investigation is the act or process of discovering, especially of details that are deliberately obscured.

Intelligence the art of observing or infiltrating an enemy for the purpose of information gathering.

I see what you mean by combining the two, but I have to respectfully disagree and say that they are two separate skills. You aren't necessarily gathering intelligence in the woods while seeing if someone has been using a hole in a tree trunk as a place to hide things...

2. Pickpocket, Stealing, and Larceny:

Originally, these were three skills, and they were, several months ago, combined into Larceny.

3. Changing Larceny regarding Stealth and Espionage:

I see your point, there, and I think it's a good one. But by the time they reach those higher ranks, it would make sense to me that they would have picked up at least some knowledge of the related skills and are able to utilize it in their plans. A smart thief would likely plot out all their possible escape routes long before they go and make the grab. It's just common sense.

4. Blacksmithing and Metalsmithing:

I understand what you mean about them being extremely overlapped, but they are really different branches of the (admittedly) same skills, and we wanted to be able to show that degree of specialization, because that specialization and customization really helps develop the character. Just because someone is a master at making, say, a horseshoe doesn't mean they are necessarily able to make delicate wire statues and figurines (metalsmithing) or fine filigree work for pendants and gemstone settings (jewelcrafting).

4.5. Armorer/Blacksmithing:

Again... the work of an armorer and a blacksmith is different. Creating chainlink or plate armor is different from making tools or something like that - this is where the specialization comes into play again. We'll discuss the name change to Armorsmith, because that does make sense.

5. Leatherworker/Blacksmith vs. Armorer:
In the blacksmithing writeup, the making of armor is specifically excluded for a reason:

It is important to note that blacksmithing involves crafting decorative items as well as tools and other implements. It does not include the forging of weapons or armor as these require differing techniques.

Leatherworkers cannot make chain armor. They can make things out of leather, true. Equally, blacksmiths do not make armor.

6. Impersonation and Disguise:

The impersonator is likely to possess knowledge such as that of the subject being impersonated, military procedure, dress, heraldry/rank if necessary.

Disguise is the art of creating an outward semblance that misrepresents one's true nature. It involves not only the use of different types of clothing but also the implementation of cosmetics, wigs, masks and a variety of other materials.

Impersonation does not necessarily mean needing to change one's appearance. They could be simply being anonymous in whatever position they are in, or they could be impersonating a very specific person. They are two different skills.

7. Forgery vs. Calligraphy vs. Writing

Forgery is the skill of being able to produce a copy that is represented as the original in terms of documents and signatures.

Calligraphy is simply the art of fine handwriting.

Writing is the skill of recoding information on paper in use of book making or forms of documents.

Forgery is making copies. Calligraphy is beautiful handwriting. Writing is actually writing things. These are separate skills. I can see how Forgery and Calligraphy could somewhat be worked together, but calligraphy isn't making exact copies or something, and forgery isn't necessarily a beautiful, flowing script. Writing does not apply to either of these. Writing, as far as I am concerned, is like actually writing either a research paper, or one's journal, or something like that.

8. Locksmithing as Blacksmithing or Gadgeteering.

Locksmithing is the skill of creating keys and locks out of metal.

Blacksmiths produce things like iron gates, grills, railings, furniture, sculpture, tools and implements, decorative and religious items, cooking utensils and horseshoes.

Gadgeteering is the skill of conceiving, designing, constructing and repairing machines.

Locks can be very, very, very intricate, using tons of gears and intricate things that could work into it. Admittedly, you could maybe, maybe apply some gadgeteering here, but I don't think blacksmithing applies. Again, specialization.

9. On weaponry:

We've had previous discussions on Mizahar before about the differences in weapons and the different skills. Working with a shortbow is different from a longbow. Working with a katana is different from a longsword - these are two different weapons with different edges and different weights and sizes.

Using your example... Here's a Katana:


Here is a longsword:


Are they both long blades?

Yes. But the edges are different, the techniques are different. The entire way you would fight with them are different.

[Gossamer]

I too am a stickler for structure. In fact, most people on here would pin any founder with a slight bit of anal retentiveness. We really thought long and hard before making out the skill list - and as Cayenne has so eloquently said - the list is a fluid organic creature that constantly evolves and changes. To us, that is one of the best ways you can keep a good grasp on the changing trends in a game and yet apply the needed pressure to the creative reins in order to keep the game on par with its original vision.

You probably can't imagine the amount of time we spent discussion that vision before we even started to create the site.

Now, that being said, I should point out a few things myself. As the chief CS reader and pm nudger when people create characters - I do spend a lot of time sending folks gentle reminders that they cannot do the following....

Maybe I could even make it more general and just say Swordsmanship is his skill? It would be a stretch, but I could even use Bladed Weapons as the skill, encompassing daggers and the like as well.

You'd get a tiny little message from me saying 'PICK A WEAPON' for all the reasons that Cayenne outlined. Most of us Founders have experience using these weapons either in a SCA type scenario or are just nerdy enough to have researched the heck out of them to know that someone proficient in a long sword could probably pick up a katana and use it, but they'd get their asses handed to them fighting someone who used a katana full time and studied in its techniques. Oddly enough games like this draw all sorts of folks - there's people who know horses really really well here (myself), martial arts (numerous players - abashai for one), and pretty much all essentric art forms and arcanas (Tarot - he wrote them!). Cayenne knows cooking and birds, and there are countless of others who are very very well versed in just about anything you can imagine. Gillar is a Wilderness Survival freak. He can't help it. I could go on but I sense by now your getting the point.

So... it is to these experts we tend to give a nod too when developing skills. And we do not allow people to generalize when creating their PCs, but instead ask them to be very specific and concise. If you pick longsword, you will only be able to use a longsword. Not a greatsword, not a katana, not a short sword, not a falchion, a kopesh, or anything else. Just a long sword.

The last thing I really want to do is lump all these skills together. I think they are beautiful and somewhat unique depending on how you look at them. As someone who spent four years playing an avid jewelcrafter - I can tell you the metalsmithing you do as a jeweler is far different than other metalsmithing though some of the techniques do overlap - but in that light they're done on a vastly different scale. Jewelcrafting teaches metalsmithing as part of its tradeskill. But a jewelcrafter cant be a metalsmith for anything other than jewels or the odd related simple project outside the realm of jewelcrafting - something definitely novice.

We're open to discussion here, but like you said, I don't want you wasting your time writing things up one when when they are listed another. Probably the best bet would be to ask a founder before you started working on a skill in the World Development forum just for clarification. We do need people to write up skills because right now they are getting done pretty much as someone takes an interest in doing them - meaning their pc is using the skill. While this is helpful and great, it still means the skill writeups come in slowly. And keep in mind while you are thinking of contributing, to please make sure that anything you write is fairly detailed and accurate. Skills are far more than their skill trees. They instead deserve introductions, details, and somewhat sophisticated dialog.

[Aythar]

Okay, reading both of your posts, I have to admit I let loose a little fangirl squeal. I’ve encountered RP’s that are unbearably below my level (Dont mean to sound arrogant, I'm sure you know the type. It's just a different style of roleplaying, really.). I’ve encountered sites that I find interesting, but get bored of quickly because there simply isn’t enough material to keep me interested. I’ve even encountered the rare site that can be slightly challenging. I’m pretty sure I’ve never encountered an RP like this, however, with the obvious amount of forethought and dedication of the staff members. You’ve made it clear that writing lore pages is going to take a great deal of time, research and detail. I ask only this of you.

Quit making it sound like a challenge.

Anyway, back on topic, I’m a little embarrassed I didn’t notice the thread about weapons skills. I was pretty certain I had done extensive research before making that post, because I didn’t want you guys, as the staff who obviously put in tons of effort (as you said, probably more than I could imagine), to feel like I was just some new member treading on your toes.

I can definitely see your point about weapons, that each type of weapon would have different kinds of techniques. I based my assumption mostly on archery. Since I’ve been doing archery since, well, pretty much as long as I can remember, I understand how much difference the curvature of the limbs (recurve, decurve, ect), materials used, length, thickness, type of bowstring… I’m sure you get the idea. I’m pretty specialized myself, I tend to use composite recurves, which I find much more interesting to use than, say, a compound, which seems to be the most commonly used type of bow these days. This doesn’t mean that I couldn’t use a different type of bow, just that I’m better with composite recurves and, given the choice, would prefer one over any other kind of bow. I can see how this would work with swords as well, which use specific blocks / parries / swings / thrusts that could be completely different if the weight, breadth, length and/or sharpness of the weapon was changed.

I still stand by my earlier statement, that I find it absurd to think that someone skilled in the use of a katana would have a skill level similar to that of a novice if they were to use a longsword, even without any prior training with a longsword. I’ve never used a shortbow before, but I’m relatively certain that I would be a decent shot with one, or at the very least learn considerably faster than someone who didn’t have any experience with a longbow. However, not throwing the skills together emphasizes the artistic abilities of using each different type of weapon, which really is more important in a RP setting, and avoids making any system so complex that nobody understands how to use it without having had a hand in developing it. So yeah, I just wasted the last two paragraphs saying I agree with your decision in a very long-winded way. Hopefully I didn’t put anyone to sleep. I’ll try to be a bit more concise about the other subjects.

Regarding Larceny, Stealing and Pick Pockets skills, my confusion was because you have both a Stealing and Pick Pockets skill page. I don’t know anything about your wiki, so it may just be that you can’t delete pages, I just wanted to point out the reason for my confusion. This was actually what inspired me to make this post; other than this, I was really just stating my opinions without really understanding the level of detail you mean to have in skills. Which makes me feel like some new member who’s just treading on your toes, which is exactly what I wanted to avoid. Sorry!

With Investigation and Intelligence, I can see your point about how you wouldn’t call it intelligence to find a hidden trap door in a cellar. I could readily replace Intelligence with Investigation in any sentence I can readily think of, however. I was just thinking of Investigation to broadly; I assume you mean it to be more detail oriented than what I was imagining. And merging them into an ‘Espionage’ skill was stupid, since Espionage is even more specific; I just couldn’t think of a good word for combining them.

I’ll readily consent on all topics regarding the manipulation of metal. I have next to no experience with it, the closest being having taken a class in welding once, so I can’t really say anything about it. I just thought having 4 different topics over what I saw as being the same general skills was weird, but if you think there’s a significant difference I’d take your word over mine.

Combining Impersonation and Disguise was simply stupidity on my part. I just read Impersonation and assumed you had to look like someone in order to impersonate them, and that you had to impersonate a specific person. You’re right, of course, since you could either impersonate a guard or disguise yourself as a guard to similar ends, but a combination of the two would be considerably more effective.

Forgery, Calligraphy and Writing… Based off of the description of writing, which admittedly is a stub, I concluded that writing was the actual ability to write. So as your ability to write increased, so would your handwriting (Calligraphy) and ability to write in a convincing and entertaining manner (Writing). So, once again, you’re correct.

Ect, ect.

So at the very least, thanks for explaining the level of detail you’re looking for in the skill write ups. Like I said at the beginning, it sounds like a challenge, so I’m looking forward to it. I might be a bit slow with it though, I want to get it at least mostly right the first time and school will take priority.

[Sefra]

Might I interject with a thought?

(Assumes a "yes")

There's lots of mention of specialization and all that, with which I fully agree, and there's also this notion that some skills overlap too much and should therefore be combined. I found this to be a sensible suggestion.

I'm sure that at least a third of the people on Mizahar have, at some point, played World of Warcraft or a similar RPG (mmo or not). In WoW, they implemented a system that deals with exactly this problem.

A character can select one of the available professions--my rogue selected Leatherworking. Once the proficiency in that profession gets to a certain level (300, I believe), the character must specialize--a leatherworker would need to pick Elemental, Dragonscale, or Tribal. The same was true in the talent trees. If a rogue specialized in Assassination, there would never be enough points to fill out EVERY talent (iirc), and so the rogue usually ended up with a choice between two or more of the high-level abilities.

I can also speak from my martial arts experience, and I don't doubt that others may agree with me:

Some martial arts treat all forms of combat--blades, empty-hand, stick, staff, spear--as though they are the same. This is because the basic principles of not getting hit and delivering a blow are the same for all weapons and ranges. For instance, the Filipino Martial Arts typically start new students with sticks. Later, they move to blades. At high levels, they take away the weapons entirely and just use their hands. At all levels, the basic look and feel of the techniques is exactly the same because it all works on the same theory.

Now, an FMArtist may decide that his favourite is, say, twin sticks. He'll learn the subtleties of the sticks that set it apart from, say, one knife, and will likely be more proficient with the twin sticks than the one knife simply for the difference in practice. This is a bit of specialization, but I would say that this person's skill is "Short Weapons" and "Duel Weapons."

If we look at swords, we'll find the same principles still apply. Of course, the different characteristics of every sword will cause subtle to dramatic differences in application of these principles. A rapier is meant for much more fine movement than a broadsword, and a gladius works more like a club where a Katana is more like a guillotine. All that said, you give a samurai a week with a german longsword and he'll be pretty proficient with it--indeed, if he picked it up off the ground to defend himself, he would probably have a pretty good chance, so long as he hadn't ground into his brain the notion that the usage of the katana is the only way to use a sword.

I suggest that some skills become subsets of other skills. For instance, up to level ten, a character is just a "metalworker." From there, he can specialize into "Jewelcrafting" or "Smithing." At level 20, a Smith can branch into "Metalsmith" or "Blacksmith," and so on. With this example, it makes perfect sense to me because, as I understood from your posts, the basic principles of working with metal are the same in any branch, and these basic principles would be the first things a novice learns before specializing.

The same applies to Swordsmanship, which I feel could be placed into the tree of "Martial Arts." A novice begins by learning the twelve angles of attack, what are height zones, what is footwork, what is a counter, etc. At level ten, one can choose to specialize in "Unarmed" or "Swords," at twenty in "Grappling" or "Long Swords" and so on.

Of course, if the player so wished, a character could pursue all possible branches--though I imagine that would leave very few points for anything else.

This would add structure to the system that could be easily modified and would allow for a character to have a working knowledge of skills related to his own without forcing the player to spend points in the starting package unnecessarily. Personally, I feel this would add depth to our characters and cause the rather mathematical system of skill points to not interfere with what a character can know and understand due to point allotments.

[Gossamer]

Aythar -

I have to say its refreshing to have someone tell both Cayenne and myself this. We get a tremendous amount of flack for our hardline stances on writeup quality - to the point we get discouraged even reading someone else's work sometimes because we know its an un-winable situation when you have to critique and yet try to spare someone's feelings or thoughts.

Cayenne and I totally see where your coming from and what you were suggesting. You aren't off base about what your saying with longswords verses Katana's either. We simply needed to draw the line somewhere, and you can obviously see where we drew it. I think you understand that. And again, your not wrong - its just hard to quantify everything without getting horribly complex which was something you yourself said earlier.

Have you considered writing up archery and bower/fletcher? It sounds like you have some experience in this area and those writeups are really really needed. So far, none of us are yoeman experts so it helps to have one around.

Again, thanks for the repeated thanks and compliments. Again, I'm glad someone appreciates a little anal retentiveness.

Sefra -

Thank you for your suggestions, however, as you might have noticed we've been open for seven months and have well over 500 characters with almost 13000 posts. To suggest we change our system now would be a headache I do not want to deal with. To suggest we change our system to reflect WOW's system is... well... not ever going to happen. Ever. I don't care how much you like WOW or agree with it, Mizahar is not ever going to remotely reflect anything WOW does because frankly a goodly portion of Mizahar's Founders strongly dislike the game (which has borrowed from every game out there anyhow). Cayenne likes it, but I believe she's about the only one... poor thing. Anyhow, the main truth here is if you ask 100 people about how they think the skill system should work, you'll get 100 answers. This thread wasn't really about reworking the skill system (as your suggesting really) but rather about combining some skills and making some minor changes to the skills themselves, not the system.

We're functioning fine under our current system. It is Mizahar's skill system. Its the one everyone has used successfully thus far.

[Sefra]

I didn't mean we should change our system to be the same as WoW's--certainly not! I appreciate the uniqueness of Mizahar too much. I was using it as an example to illustrate how branching has been done in different systems (and with great success, I'll add). My suggestion was merely a compromise between what Aythar was saying and what is currently in place.

If I may still be bold enough to offer my opinion,

We're creating characters who are organic and lifelike, who will have experiences in life which we, the players, may never write about in the forums. Experiences which, if they were real people, would teach them things about many subjects about which they may not care at the time. Nonetheless, if a similar situation ever cropped up, they would have that prior experience to fall back on.

It's very difficult to show this using points.

I feel that, since many skills are related to each other, learning about one would inherently lead to some understanding of another, and the best way to show that would be with trees. Consider Horses: a person who practices Riding a horse is going to have to learn to Care for the horse, as well. Those two skills (and trust me, horse care is a skill--especially when you have a hot blooded young stud who just ain't having it that day) are quite independent of each other, but there's almost no way to learn one without learning the other. At the same time, learning one enhances your ability with the other.

But perhaps implementing a tree or tier system isn't totally necessary. I suppose the same effect could be achieved by simply linking related skills to one another on the wiki (maybe in a little box at the bottom of the page?) and reminding players and storytellers that some skills come with other skills? Say, if you earn +5 Staff you also get +.5 Spear; or +5 Larceny you also get +1 Deception (for the thief who gets stopped and must talk his way out of getting caught). Maybe this is already done, but my PC hasn't had an opportunity to earn any points yet, so I don't know ^.^;;; . Anyway, this at least doesn't require an overhaul on the points system and still allows for relating skills which overlap.

[Gossamer]

Consider Horses: a person who practices Riding a horse is going to have to learn to Care for the horse, as well. Those two skills (and trust me, horse care is a skill--especially when you have a hot blooded young stud who just ain't having it that day) are quite independent of each other, but there's almost no way to learn one without learning the other. At the same time, learning one enhances your ability with the other.

I raise and train horses.

It is quite possible to learn horse care and horsemanship, even animal husbandry without learning to ride. It is also quite possible to learn riding without horse care. Ask someone who runs a boarding facility with full care how often their wealthy clients who have expensive pampered horses come out and run a brush through their mane or pick up their feet? Odds are its not often. There's a lot of people who invest $20,000- $100,000 in a horse their child can compete on and simply show up, dump the child on the horses back, and expect the horse to perform like a trained poodle. It's quite sad. But again I have to politely disagree with the points your making.

We already have 'related and pre-requisite skills' fields in finished (read that as non-stub articles) wiki submissions. We won't be implementing incremental bonuses in skills for learning one but not the other. It's simply too easy to use related skills in a single thread and get credit for both simultaneously. Adding on .5 bonuses for things not used in thread is a nightmare in record keeping on part of both the player character and storyteller. Mizahar's system doesn't make you choose earning XP from one over the other.

Say if a jewelcrafter cut a stone and the worked the gold to a ring, wielded on the prongs, then set the stone, then polished added filigree etc... they could get numerous skill points in numerous things. Simply use the skills in thread and you'll get credit for it.

I suggest you play a little, earn some XP, and start using some skills to see how easy this system really is to use BEFORE you make suggestions on modifying it. Then, if you don't like it feel free to make some constructive suggestions with specific examples as to how something was awkward or didn't seem to work for your character via game play.

[Cayenne]

Sefra - I'll be honest with you. I love WoW, but the skill specializations and limitations in that game are a total pain in the ass. They're there because there are millions more people and you want to try to be able to group things and make everyone valuable and useful in some way, shape, or form. The WoW system is far from perfect, because it's annoying as hell to have to remake alts, or depend on others, for stuff.

The Mizahar system allows for an endless amount of skills and XP that you can earn in one thread. Sure, you can get a max of 5 XP per skill, but there are no limits to the different skills and the different lores you can earn. Give the system a shot. You might find you like it.