Alchemy + Philtering + Physics

[Zhol]

I'm working on the Physics lore page at the moment (discussion here), and I'm trying to make sure that before I start, my understanding of Miz-science is as correct as I can get it.

The big thing I'm trying to get straight in my head at the moment is matter - ie. the stuff that stuff is made of. While I've studied the lore pages, I'm a long way from being an expert on alchemy, philtering, and such things, so I'd really appreciate some input from people who have a lot more familiarity than I do.

1. Does Mizahar understand that everything is made of "particles"? (ie. atoms, in the Ancient Greek sense... not the electrons/protons sense)

2. Do we have a concept of elements in the periodic table sense? (ie. a pure substance, versus a mix of substances)

3. In philtering, do we understand that when a substance undergoes a chemical reaction, you are separating out the pure substances and mixing them together in a new combination, or (like with alchemy) is it seen as transforming Substance A into Substance B, without a deeper understanding.

4. How much of the periodic table is Mizahar familiar with? Is there a definitive list of what metals/elements/etc are available/possible/known about (based on whether or not the purification process is possible given Mizahar's tech level)? Would a list of such things be useful?

5. Do you use scientific/chemical names for compounds and acids (eg. hydrochloric acid), or do you tend to avoid specific element names, and go with alternate names (eg. muriatic acid, acidum salis, etc)?

[Gossamer]

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. The ancients probably had a good grasp of this. Nowadays, its a lost knowledge and probably just a few things like carbon, iron, salt, etc is known but not by molecular breakdown, weight, number, etc.
5. No.

[Zhol]

If no, then how does Mizahar's understanding of solid/liquid/gas work?

From the philtering page, Mizahar clearly understands evaporation and sublimation (they are explicitly stated as possible processes), and even melting and solidification... those processes are usually stood in terms of "the particles that stuff is made of becoming less close together". It's a concept that dates back to Ancient Greece, hence me wondering if it was "simple enough" for Mizahar to understand it.

[Gossamer]

I think the cavemen even understood solid, liquid, and gas. I don't think they understand particles as you are trying to add in. Ancients? Yes... they had advanced technology.

[Zhol]

Cavemen may understand "if you make it hot, it might melt," but that doesn't explain evaporation. If, instead of thinking that a puddle "just goes away", you actually realise that the substance has changed into an invisible gas, and understand that well enough to construct special glass equipment to collect it, and cool it so it will condense again (again, stuff straight from the philtering article), then clearly you've got a slightly more shrewd understanding than a caveman would have. Also, the fact that reimancers are able to create mists, have res seep from their pours like a gas and so forth, suggests that they must in some way be able to conceptualise what a gas is like, in terms of it being a fine "mist" of res.

If Mizahar does not understand the concept of particles, fair enough - but if they don't, then how do they understand that? A huge amount of scientific concepts are based on the idea of particles - density for example, something already understood and used on Miz as a means of identifying gemstones, is based on the premise of "more tiny particles of stuff crammed into the same volume". If that simple premise (which again, we're talking about the Ancient Greek understanding here, not Rutherford scattering or anything fancy like that) is not understood, then a whole lot of other scientific understanding that Mizahar demonstrably has becomes somewhat dubious.

Should I explain around this using the idea of fragments of left over ancient knowledge? "We don't know how we know this, we just do", etc?

[Sedge]

I expect there were competing explanations among the Greeks (and other historical peoples), not just particles as the theory. I can help research some of these things and work with you on a Miz-appropriate model, if you like.

[Zhol]

That would be really helpful, thanks Sedge.