[Sullins' Residence] Making an Oath [Clyde Sullins]

by **Xii** on April 27th, 2015, 12:50 am

13th of Spring, 515 AV

Xii awoke to a room that wasn't her hotel room, and again ~as she had the last time she'd woken up in this place~ she panicked, body tensing. Her head twinged with pain in time with her rapid heartbeat, especially at her temples and her nose. Her left hand, which had been curled against her chest, squeezed into a fist, aching, and suddenly she remembered where she was. Clyde Sullins' house.

She must've fallen asleep while she was waiting for him to prepare the oath that would bind them together as... what? Master and apprentice? She didn't like the word 'master' so much, it implied ownership... so she switched it to 'teacher'. But that wasn't quite right either. He would be both teacher and protector. So maybe like... guardian? No, that wasn't it. Maybe there was no singular title for what he would be. And maybe 'apprentice' was the wrong word for her, too. She didn't really know. She still wasn't entirely certain how this 'grand oath' stuff even worked.

The Zithling girl sat up a little where she'd been slumped with her back to the wall, and rubbed her eyes, looking around. She was still in the common room at the front of the house, though she had moved from the middle of the floor, instead sitting slouched but leaning against the side of one of the benches that lined the walls.

Xii remembered... she remembered that she'd crawled her way over here after Sullins had left to get supplies for the oath. At that time it had been a good idea to have something to lean on for support. Once here, she'd rubbed the blood from her face as best she could, and then had set to meditating, trying to alleviate the awful headache that had come with her overgiving. Somehow during that she must have fallen asleep. She couldn't really blame herself, though she wanted to for letting her guard down in such a way. She'd just been really tired after all that had happened.

Now at least she felt somewhat refreshed. The headache was still there, but at least it had lessened to an occasional throbbing, instead of eye-watering pain. Her nose felt like it'd been punched, so maybe she had fallen over onto her face when she'd passed out before, and then sat back up after? And her hand... was working a little better. It didn't feel hot anymore, though the thumb was still somewhat swollen. Poking at it now it didn't seem broken, and she could move it mostly how she normally could, so there was probably nothing to do but wait for it to get better. She could try to wrap it and put it in place so it didn't move too much... but nah. Her left was her dominant hand. She needed it free to do stuff, like write.

Now fully awake and her assessment complete, the young girl looked around the room closely for the first time, trying to figure out if Sullins had come back yet and finished his whatever-he-was-doing, or if she still had time to wait.

by **Clyde Sullins** on May 7th, 2015, 7:12 pm

Generally Clyde went to Black Tar's when he was in Ravok and in need of various magic related ingredients. Usually bigger orders, like when he went for Magecrafting ingredients, were more trouble, and required longer to procure, but the needed supplies to make an oath were generally on hand.

The various bits of heavy and thick parchment of a fine make, tiny jars of the finest ink each in its own color, and often with a fine lacing of mineral powder or other rare ingredients mixed in to make the ink more lasting and permanent.

Such were the common things needed to make a Grand Oath. Getting there and back meant a pair of Ravasola rides, with a somewhat spooky visit in between inside of Black Tar's. Considering all of the events of late, he didn't know when he'd next need to make an oath, nor when he'd next have time to purchase more, so he bought enough to make two oaths. One to use with Xii, and one for later use.

Both the ride to and from Tar's were short, due to the curving about of the city. Black Tar's was one of the oldest establishments in Ravok's docks area, while Sullin's house was one of the newest, and since the docks had formed near circle about the outskirts of Ravok that meant they were almost neighbors, or at least in neighboring areas. His actual neighbors were other recent home owners.

Clyde recalled his recent use of morphing, of using it with Cha for the first time, and of what had happened after... Xii had lost control, going far into overgiving in attempting something beyond her, and Clyde had been forced to knock her out nearly to stop her.

As he stepped back out of the Ravasola at his house, he set Cha down, feeling as her bottom met the ground with a solid feel. She was solid once more, complete and normal, no longer bent like a snake as she had been before... For some reason it had felt more odd to him to see Cha's shape change than it had his own. Was he perhaps more connect to her in her... Cha-ness... Than he was to himself in his own shape?

Heading inside, he found the girl, still in the common area. At least, he thought to himself, she hadn't ran off...

“Come along Xii, come along. I have what is needed. Lets adjourn to the lab, and I'll make a draft of the oath before we start on the real stuff.”

While the trip had been short, he'd spent the ride there and back thinking. Wording the oath in his head for their needs. He'd started with the last oath he'd made, then tweaked it, added some bits, took some bits off, and edited some more.

Hopefully the end product would be a satisfactory document.

Assuming Xii followed along Clyde would unlock and lock the lab once they were inside, and proceed to make out a draft of the oath.

Purchase :

by **Xii** on May 14th, 2015, 2:55 am

It must have been the front door opening that had originally woken her. Not very long after she'd begun looking around the room Sullins walked in, carrying some stuff with him that must be the materials used for the oath. She hadn't been asleep nearly as long as she'd thought she'd been.

“Come along Xii, come along. I have what is needed. Lets adjourn to the lab, and I'll make a draft of the oath before we start on the real stuff.”

Yawning, the girl pulled herself slowly to her feet, testing her balance. Before, she had hardly been able to sit upright without wavering. Now she could walk easily, especially if she kept one hand against the wall to steady herself. She crept around the edge of the room, following after the Ebonstryfe into the lab to the side, and then slouched back onto the floor near the desk, head tilted back. She would have taken the chair there but what was the point; Sullins would likely sit there to write the thing, so he would make her move anyway.

"So what's gonna be in the oath? This... draft?" she asked, watching with tired, interest as Sullins did whatever he was going to do, looking at the fancy parchment and inks he had with him. Vaguely she wondered why he needed that fancy stuff anyways; what made that particular parchment special? And those inks? Why those ones and not others? Apparently not just anybody could scribble down one of these oaths on just any old paper, but why was it like that? Just because of the magic?

However, she didn't ask Sullins any of this. He seemed to dislike excessive talking, which was fine with her though it meant she wouldn't get her answers.

Once it looked like the other mage was finished with his writing, Xii would hold out one hand and see if she might look over what he'd written. Despite her various aches and pains she was becoming more and more curious. Would the words be special or something? Like those symbols he'd used for the scroll before? Or just like normal? What exactly went into the oath? And, truth be told, she wasn't exactly certain what making a 'draft' even meant... like practice?

by **Clyde Sullins** on May 14th, 2015, 2:31 pm

Once they were safely cloistered away in the locked lab, Clyde let out a short breath of a sigh before getting to work. It wasn't often he had a chance to do work at this level, and he found it was an ever evolving art. One did not really learn everything there was to know of such things, instead nuances continually popped up and would come to the forefront.

He'd learned quite a few things with his last oath, and he did not doubt he'd learn something new with this one. He just hoped he was reaching the point of diminishing return, when he knew most of the stuff and only had the increasingly small and esoteric things left to come to understand.

Taking a seat at his desk, Clyde set down his newly acquired materials, and pulled up a piece of blank parchment and some ink. He wouldn't be using the finer stuff for this, the copying down and working out of the details of the oath. That was for more common materials. Though with all of the talk about it before between Clyde and Xii, along with his time spent in thought on the ride there and back Clyde felt he had a reasonably well polished product.

In response to her question Clyde simply shrugged her off.

“In a moment, you'll see. Let me finish.”

With that he continued writing out the oath, pausing there and here to recall a point, digging through his own memory and his skill in logic to think of the oath from all angles.

I, the undersigned, hereby swear upon the divine halls of Ukalas and all those who dwell within that I shall do as follows:

- To not bring harm(defined later) to Clyde Sullins, either directly, indirectly, or through inaction, whether through means magical or mundane, unless said harm is to stop Clyde Sullin's assured and immediate death.

> In the case of Clyde Sullin's overgiving and total loss of control/inability to stop using magic when he should, the signee would be allowed to physically harm Clyde Sullins to hinder or stop him from using magic, so long as said action would not lead to the assured and immediate death of Clyde Sullins. Maiming would only be allowed as a last resort and if no other viable and less harmful method is possible.

- To not use magic on Clyde Sullins without his direct and express permission, or in the case that not using said magic would lead to Clyde Sullins assured and immediate death. In the case of having his permission or attempting to stop his demise, the signee would not use said magic in an attempt to control or manipulate Clyde Sullins, or to alter his reasoning or mentality.

- To not use magic beyond the signee's limits at that time, and to cease expending djed in using magic as soon as the signee enters overgiving, even minor overgiving. Upon entering overgiving the signee will not use magic again until they are fully recuperated from said djed expenditure.

> Clause to the line directly above about magic usage and stopping with overgiving- In the case where not using magic would lead to the immediate and assured death of the signee and/or Clyde Sullins, and said magic by the signee is the only way to stop said death, the above said limitation is waved, and the signee would be allowed to continue using magic until there is no longer an immediate and assured threat of death to the signee and/or Clyde Sullins, so long as said magic usage does not directly go against the previous line about not harming Clyde Sullins. At such a time when the threat has been abated and is no longer an assured and immediate threat, the current clause will no longer apply.

-Duty- The signee will aid Clyde Sullins in his endeavors(to be defined later) in any way possible, within their ability, so long as said assistance will not directly lead to the assured death and/or permanent maiming of the signee or Clyde Sullins.

Definitions:

Endeavors- A goal, mission, plan, experiment, or action, that's end desired result is a gain for the maker or leader of said endeavor. Said gain can be politically, socially, physically, monetarily, or intellectually(gaining knowledge).

Harm- Any permanent damage, diminishment, or undermining to a person, in terms of- the person (list to be expanded upon individually)physically, mentally, socially, politically, and/or monetarily.

> physically- Their body and person- bodily harm and/or maiming/death
> mentally- Their psyche or mentality, or mental well-being
> socially- Their social standing or growth
> politically- Their political standing or progression
> monetarily- Their possessions or property- to include damage, destruction, or theft.

Final Clause:

- The Signee will be released from the aforementioned Duty upon an agreement in writing and verbally agreed between both Clyde Sullins and the Signee, without duress and of each ones own free will, that said duty has ended.

signed___________

Done with the draft, Clyde slid the parchment aside to the edge of the desk, so that Xii would be able to clearly see it.

Without saying anything else Clyde launched into the outer layer of the grand oath, now using the finer materials of paper and ink to begin the glyph work. He did not put in any of the words, waiting instead for Xii to read though it and state any issues she might have. Instead he worked on the intricate outermost layer and barrier.

Where before he had been thinking and writing, now he was simply drawing out his glyph's, something he could do easily and at high speed. There was little to no gap between thought and action, instead it was more like the ink was freely flowing onto the paper.

He began with an outer creeping, a layer of vine like wiring and lines curving and sweeping and breaking and stretching about the outer layer of the paper. It curved and turned and swept in upon itself, almost meeting and breaking, but never colliding, though at many spots the lines seemed to come a hairsbreadth from clashing before they both seemed to curve away.

Within that vine work was a second layer, laid and paired with but not overlaying the first, filling in many of the smaller gaps and bigger open spots with new vining. Once the vine was done, having circled about the entire out layer of the paper, the innate design and pattern of it became more visible, a series of glyphs working together and meshing into one cohesive barrier series stronger than any line alone could have been.

At least, that's what it would have looked like to anyone knowledgeable of glyphing. To anyone else it was simply a complex leaf and vine pattern sweeping about the page, leaving a large open gap in the middle for the writing to come.

by **Xii** on May 15th, 2015, 3:45 am

The 'draft' that Sullins finished was long, longer than Xii had expected. He slid it over to the side of the desk, and the girl reached and carefully picked it up, taking it down so that she might read it. Sullins didn't say anything, just went back to his writing, and so Xii focused as best she could on the writing before her.

It really was long. And it wasn't like anything she'd ever read before. She'd had only a little amount of education compared to what most people in cities would. She'd grown up first with the Zith, who didn't read or write. Then with the Drykas, who also didn't write and didn't waste space by carrying books around. Syliras had been where she'd learned what little she knew about letters and numbers... only that had gone unfinished. She had left the city before she'd learned proper words and writing ~like spelling~ since she'd had to leave in a hurry.

So pretty much something like this ~like real reading~ was difficult. Extremely so. There were some words that the Zithling just didn't know.

Some of them, like 'undersigned' and 'signee' and 'aforementioned' she could figure out, since they made sense if she thought about what they must mean.

Some of them were simply hard for her to actually read; it wasn't like the writing she herself did where everything made sense and was sounded out just perfect. Instead there were some letters that for some reason went unsaid, or others that changed pronunciation in weird ways that she had to puzzle through.

The worst words were ones she'd never heard of, and didn't have any real certainty about. 'Endeavors' had been one of those, but then Sullins had explained what it meant so it wasn't a problem. 'Recuperated' she thought probably meant 'get better from'. 'Duress' she wasn't so sure. 'Ukalas' she had no idea about.

Besides the reading being hard, there was also the meaning. Xii had to read slowly, painstakingly through once. Then twice. And again. After that, once she thought she knew what most of it meant, she tried poking at the words, trying to figure out if there were any holes or parts she didn't like. Some of the stuff she recalled from earlier, things they had already talked about. That made it easier, though only a little.

Finally, after it looked like Clyde had finished with his... drawings? He'd drawn a bunch of leaves and vines, and for a moment that distracted her as she tried to figure out why.

But anyways, finally she stood up and set the draft back on the desktop, and began pointing to things. Questions first, though.

"What does 'duress' mean? And what is 'Ukalas'? It's a place right? 'All those who dwell within'... So some special place."

She didn't really know, but it felt like it was the 'Ukalas' that made the writing powerful. Even the name sort of sounded like power. She continued on.

"First, I don't think there's stuff here about accidents...? Like you said accidents wouldn't count. But this just says 'directly' or 'indirectly'. I think it should say something about not purposefully bringing harm, or like intentionally or willfully or however you want to say it." She was worried that without leaving room for accidents her actions would somehow be constricted, though she wasn't exactly certain how that would work. And honestly it wasn't her biggest objection. If he didn't agree to this, then that would probably still be okay.

"Next, I don't like that 'endeavors' part. I think I know what it's saying. Like... I would just help you with stuff. But there's no limit on what stuff. I think there should be a limit." She paused, trying to put her thoughts into words. "If I'm reading it right~" that was a big IF "~then I could become a slave if I signed this as it is. I would have to help with every little task you wanted, even dumb things like getting food or whatever. I think it should only be important tasks, or ones that maybe can't be handled easily by one person." There. That was as good an explanation as she could give.

The part called the 'final clause' was the one she had the most concerns about~ not helped by the fact that she didn't exactly know what a 'clause' was. "This agreement thing at the end to undo the Oath... if one person doesn't agree to the release then the other person would be stuck, right?" She didn't know how to fix that or even if it could be fixed. It just made her uneasy, thinking she might be trapped.

"And what duty does it mean I will be released from? Like all of the stuff, about the magic and harm and everything? Or just the part about helping you?" If she was to be released, she would want to be free of it all. Not just some of it. That seemed like another trap, and she was very good at spotting those. Or at least she thought so.

"And there's nothing here about my protection or education or anything. Like the things you promised. You would be allowed to hurt me and there would be nothing I could do about it and I would still have to serve you. And I don't like that."

She had the nagging suspicion she was missing things because of her headache and her lack of experience and reading ability, and she still didn't know if she understood how this worked at all. But at least she'd got the main stuff. She wondered if Sullins would be angry at her for pointing out things. But she wasn't just going to sign it just because he said.

by **Clyde Sullins** on May 17th, 2015, 10:14 pm

Clyde's oath was a work of art. Or at least artfully done. Every little bit in its place, every line of reasoning he could see had been dealt with... It had all that was needed to make them both happy.

So Clyde was both surprised and a bit saddened when Xii picked apart his words like a hungry bird at a fresh rabbit carcass.

Perhaps for a moment his hurt showed, but quickly enough Clyde locked such things away with a show of apathy and neutrality, putting on his uncaring and neutral face.

Some of what she said, admittedly, had some merit. Not all of it. Some of it was more or less a rehashing of what they'd explained before. But some perhaps would need to be dealt with and altered.

Though as he pondered on his response, he did feel a slight spike of annoyance at the girl for only offering issues and no solutions. However having already painted on his act of uncaring, this didn't show, at least not nearly so much as the earlier saddening or hurt.

“Before we discuss anything else, I must say, Grand Oaths are a precise magic. As such, the wording must be exactly as intended. So I won't just add in extra words and such where they aren't need, won't just water down the oath, or else it'll end up being an inconsistent blob that does nothing. Conciseness and exactness are needed. Every eventuality cannot be specifically designated and specified. As we discussed BEFORE.”

Clyde paused for a moment after ending on a final word spoken with more emphasis, before considering Xii's questions.

“Duress means danger, sort of. Or being in danger. Or duress can mean... Well in that case where it is used it means the person can't be forced to do it. No one can hold a knife to my throat and make me sign. And the Ukalas... I don't know, its just what we sign upon, the God place or whatever.”

In all honesty, Clyde wasn't fully certain what the Ukalas was. He vaguely knew it had something to do with the gods, but he couldn't recall the specifics, and it had never occurred to him before to question that particular aspect of the oath wording.

“As for accidents, Xii, we already talked about this. We don't need to specify accidents, because accidents are UNINTENTIONAL by definition. If its on purpose, its not an accident. If it was intended, its not an accident. The oath can't stop you from doing an outcome that is not on purpose and not intended. So there is no need to add in words there for nothing. Directly means through your own purposeful actions, and indirectly means through other people as a result of your purposeful actions with that as the intended effect. ”

The first real issue was her bit on the endeavors wording.

Clyde read through this bit once, twice, checking the logic and his understanding of it, before reading it again and pondering it for a full chime. Finally a small smile came to his face, and he tapped Cha absentmindedly for a moment with his fingertips.

“I think that depends upon how you read it... It wasn't my intention to do as such, but think on it this way... How would I gain from said fetching of food? I give you money, you go and spend the money to get the food, and bring it back to me... It is equivalent. There is no gain. So I could not then force you to do errands, to fetch me things. However... If I said help me with this experiment, so I can learn how to do X... I have gained knowledge, and so it would be enforced... The important word there is gain.”

Clyde paused for a moment, before continuing.

“I do see your point, but if we add in a limit, a bit about "only important tasks" or "only tasks requiring more than one person to do" it becomes too vague. Who's definition of important? what if you feel nothing I do is important? What if you feel the task could be done by myself if I strained myself, or spend three times as long to go back and force with bits? If we add in such a bit there, it'd make the entire line more or less useless.”

Clyde might have been willing to make a small edit, but it would need to be exceedingly small. And with the issues as he'd brought them upon in making an edit, it almost seemed making any change there would be more bother than it would be worth if he didn't want to invalidate the entire line.

“As for the undoing aspect... Not all oaths even hold such a clause, making it possible to get out of them. I added that as a sign of good faith. Yes, it requires us to mutually agree that our association is over, but how else would it be done?”

“The Duty is specifically that Duty of helping. It does not free you from harming me or the other aspects. For good reason though. I am teaching you magic. Showing you my knowledge. Secrets that I have spent years learning. You will see magic and processes and things that few ever see, as there are so few wizards capable of performing them, if there are any others that can and the process is not unique or of my own design. I can't then have you take my secrets, my magic, and telling everyone, or using them against me, now can I? I would be sorely treated if I taught you such secrets, and then in turn you used them all against me the moment you were freed... Or published a book with all I taught you, and made it all common knowledge. That aspect is in protection of my intellectual property in perpetuity.”

With her last issue, Clyde was less certain. He couldn't exactly make a specific statement, such as offering a lesson a day. That wouldn't be reasonable or feasible. He might be busy one season, and free the next, and so lessons would likely be sporadic at best.

He perhaps did need to add in some bit, about continuing to instruct her, perhaps promising at least once a season, or more so long as he was not unduly busy... But the method of wording such a add on escaped him at the moment.

“As for hurting you... There are several provisions in there that specifically stop such. I can't give you any orders that would lead to your death or maiming. And you'd be allowed to use your magic in your own defense should someone try to kill you, even if said person is me. Perhaps I could add in a bit to that overgiving clause, saying you are also allowed to use non-magical means to protect your life, which would perhaps settle that issue? Or perhaps a sub clause to said clause would work better...”

by **Xii** on May 21st, 2015, 4:50 pm

She seemed to have done... something, though she didn't know what. She was watching Sullins' face as she spoke. Something there changed ~she didn't recognize the emotion though, it was very fast~ and then in an instant he was showing nothing.

This intrigued her. She didn't know why, but it did. She resolved herself to pay more attention to his expressions from now on.

Speaking of... the emphasis with which he spoke ~at least at first~ indicated something, maybe anger at her having pointed out the buried tricks in his Oath draft? Well, she wasn't just going to go along with what he said, what did he expect? He wasn't the one signing something that might make him a slave. She was. She would be stupid to not ask questions about it.

His explanation of 'duress' made sense. The 'Ukalas' thing... not as much, but that, too, was interesting. He didn't say much about it, just called it 'the God place'. She had never before considered that the gods might have a specific, special place. Was this place, like, only for them? Or could people go there too? Would Rhysol be there? Could she meet him in person if she found out how to get there?

The part about accidental and not-accidental made sense... she thought...? She knew they'd talked about it before, she she didn't think she'd known that the Oath couldn't stop accidental things. She'd thought it was all-powerful, and would stop everything. So, unless you put in a line about not being held accountable for accidental harm, then you might have some problems.

However, if it was like Sullins said... then that was fine, she supposed. It really hadn't been her biggest issue.

His next explanation, about the 'endeavors' thing ~that WAS her biggest issue~ was a little confusing, and she wondered if he was bull-shyking her. His example that if he gave her money to buy food wasn't exactly right, she didn't think. Because what he would save there was time. If she had to do something for him, like go out with his money and buy his food, that meant that he had that time to do other stuff. She didn't know if 'time' counted as something one could gain, according to the contract... um, probably not, considering the words in the writing? But could extra time be considered a 'physical' gain? Like, it freed him up physically to do other things, like work or take a nap or whatever.

She didn't know.

When he tried to explain away adding a limit, she crossed her arms and said stubbornly, "Well, I did say tasks you wouldn't easily be able to do by yourself..." Still, she didn't know about the wording of this stuff. It was hard. Like he said, her version of 'easily' might be different from his... and which one would the Oath choose to follow? She tried to figure out how to say it so it wouldn't depend on a word like 'easily'.

Tasks that... Tasks that could not be accomplished personally by Clyde Sullins, without the, um... the aid of the 'signee'...? But no, because Sullins might be able to do some tasks, like he'd said, but it would just be annoying and take three times as long.

What about something like... Tasks that Clyde Sullins believes he could not easily accomplish himself? Would something like that work? Maybe that made more sense... because then he wouldn't be able to make her do stuff that he thought was trivial. But what if his version of trivial was different from hers?

Trust. Trust was the problem here. Signing the Oath meant trusting that Sullins would not overwork her or abuse her. And that was not something she was used to doing.

Still, maybe she should bring her point up. Even if he shot her down, well, at least she tried. Xii repeated back her thoughts, this time aloud. "What if it said you couldn't assign me tasks that you believed to be trivial or easily accomplished on your own? Or would that muck up the language too badly?" How much could one put into the Oath before the Oath became useless?

It was strange that putting in the 'release clause' was a sign of good faith to him, because if he put it in and never intended to actually release her then it was next to useless. But she supposed it was better to have it than to not have it at all.

And though she was reluctant to agree, she could see his point when it came to her only being released from her duties and not from the rest, like the harming and stuff. He was trying to protect himself. It would have been better for her if he'd underestimated her and allowed her to do whatever she wanted when she was released, but it seemed he was smarter than that. She would have to give that one to him, though she didn't like it.

The last topic covered was the one about him hurting her, and there were certainly loopholes in it, but she didn't know how to patch them up. She was too inexperienced at this sort of thing. All she knew what that he would not be able to force herself to self-harm, and that she would be able to defend herself if her life was in danger. But if her life wasn't in danger, like if he only wanted to beat her ~not leaving any permanent marks~ then he would be allowed. This was a problem. She stared down at the piece of parchment, reading through again, and then another time.

A passing thought came to mind, and she looked at the wording once more. Well... technically if he tried to lay hands on her then she had just as much of an ability to do the same to him, right? All of his stuff about her not harming him... it was all about 'permanent' harm, too. She couldn't cut him and leave a scar, or kill him, or poke out his eyes, but she could try to punch him back if he punched her. She didn't know how fair that was ~he was bigger than her, and she had stopped growing a year ago and so probably wouldn't get any bigger~ but at least it was something.

Finally she said, "I guess most of it is pretty good. Like it makes sense." It still felt like there were things that worked to his advantage ~actually the whole thing worked to his advantage, it wasn't like he had to sign it~ but at least there was some wiggle room. Even better, if she had a copy of the document ~which she had already requested~ she would be able to read it, memorize it, and try to figure out other things that might work in her favor. She did like the idea of such a challenge.

"Okay, I'll sign it. But like I said before, it would be better if there was something about limiting what is considered an 'endeavor'... and about you instructing me or something. If that's possible." She was beginning to wonder how effective this sort of magic was... but if Sullins thought an Oath was useful, it probably was. He knew a lot more about magic than she did, after all.

oocSorry if it seems like she's nitpicking. She does that. It's a trust thing, like she said.

by **Clyde Sullins** on May 24th, 2015, 9:53 pm

An important element to a Grand Oath, one that Clyde hadn't mentioned, and perhaps wasn't fully aware of as more than a notion he'd gained from his other encounters with grand oaths, was the importance of the beliefs of the signer.

While it wouldn't go directly against the oath, if the oath signer believed it meant one thing, truly believed, then the oath was in essence that way. Belief and understanding was closely linked. Since in reality, or so Clyde surmised, an oath only stopped someone to the extent they believed it should.

So while one couldn't go against an oath, couldn't break it, what constituted breaking it might be debatable, or what constituted holding to it.

If for instance an oath made someone promise to tell someone any information that might do them harm, as in a roundabout way Clyde's oath for Xii did, then that would only mean they had to tell them, not when. If the oath holder then overheard a plot against the person they promised to protect...

Clyde's oath, being a bit more specific, would likely cause her to protect him, and to not add harm by not informing him of something, and so she'd likely be forced to tell him before it became a problem, or before it would make matters worse for him if he did not know.

But then she could still choose to tell as soon as she physically could, or wait till the last moment before it added harm.

So long as she was not explicitly breaking the oath, and so long as Xii truly believed that she was not doing so, she wouldn't be... Probably.

So while Clyde could explain the meaning of the oath, of his wording and how he understood it, it would truly depend upon if Xii felt the same way. Which it appeared with some of the issues she did not.

It was also a clear sign to Clyde that a oath had to be made with an understanding of the person to sign it. It was clear that both Xii and Clyde understood the oath in different ways. They both comprehended it and saw its effects in different fashions. Likely this was a commonality, and if they had a third person read it they'd see it in yet another way.

He'd have to bear this in mind for future oaths.

Much of what Xii said in response to his own responses were of little help. If nothing else, it helped him assess how she understood what he said, and if she agreed with his assessment and perhaps now saw things in the same light he did. He'd prefer for her to understand it the same as he did, as that might make her reactions more predictable in regards to enforcing the oath.

“That... Would... Well at least I believe it would... Would likely depend upon your belief of what I believed. If I said before adding in words like easy would mess things up, imagine adding in something subject to your perception of my perception.”

If Clyde had seen much of her later thought process, he likely would not have been happy, and might have demanded a change to his own work. He'd purposely said permanent harm, since anything insignificant or non-material did not need to be stopped... Which technically did include non-permanent injuries. So if it wouldn't mean losing a body part, or scarring, she could do much to inflict pain upon him. So long as it didn't cause some sort of mental damage...

Likewise it might also be blocked in public, since her harassing or attacking him in public or before others might harm his social standing, as she would be his underling. So that might be a further hindrance to her non-permanently physically harming him. While she'd be avoiding physical harm, if she didn't do it right she might attempt a different type of harm.

When Xii said she'd agree to sign it, he was a bit surprised. Though it did seem there was one final problem to be addressed before she was ready to do so.

“Fine. But if you are going to work with me, then I expect you to also bring up solutions, not just problems. How do you see me editing the endeavor aspect to be more fair? Though I'm unsure if it can be fixed. And as for the instruction aspect... That brings its own sort of problems. But how would you see me editing that bit, or adding in a bit about instruction, so as to be fair? What did you have in mind?”

by **Xii** on May 25th, 2015, 8:55 pm

“That... Would... Well at least I believe it would... Would likely depend upon your belief of what I believed. If I said before adding in words like easy would mess things up, imagine adding in something subject to your perception of my perception.”

Her belief of what he believed...? Xii rubbed her good hand against her temples, a sudden headache spiking up as she tried to concentrate. What did he mean?

Subject to her perception of his perception. She focused on the words, trying to fight through to the meaning. She felt like she was missing something important.

And then, suddenly, she thought she understood. Temples throbbing, she considered further.

Sullins was saying that what mattered was what SHE thought, right? Not what he thought. It must be... because she was the one actually signing the Oath? Previous to this realization, the Zithling girl had assumed that since both parties were involved in the creation of the Oath ~Clyde made it, she agreed and signed it~ that both parties would affect its interpretation, what the words actually meant. Now she realized... well, even though Sullins was writing the Oath, it affected HER way more than it affected him. And because of that, the Oath was privy to her line of thinking. What she thought about it would be real...?

So, when Sullins said that it was her perception of his perception, or her belief of his belief... it meant that the Oath would only understand what she thought, not what he did.

This made more sense.

As Sullins continued on, asking her to contribute, she said, "I'm trying, I'm trying." She furrowed her brow, another spike of lightning pain piercing through her thoughts before settling back down. She winced and tried to puzzle out the right way to say things.

Okay, so putting the part into the Oath about what he believed to be trivial wouldn't work since it would be a really twisty line of logic to follow. Too removed. It would have to go on what she believed, then?

"Um. What about putting something in about tasks that I myself would not want to do alone...?" Only how would she know if she would want to do them or not, if she didn't understand the processes involved? And that was way too one-sided anyways. Sullins would never agree to it. She flapped a hand. "No, that's not right. Uh." She really wished they could just put the word 'easy' in, that would make things so much better, right? "If we put the word 'easy' in and define it, like how you explained in the Oath about what an endeavor counted as, would that work? So... it already says~" she pulled the paper closer to read aloud, " ' Endeavors- A goal, mission, plan, experiment, or action, that's end desired result is a gain for the maker or leader of said endeavor. ' "

"What if we added in, um, ' Endeavors- A goal, mission, plan, experiment, or action, that's end desired result is a gain for the maker or leader of said endeavor when that gain is not easily achieved without the aid of the signee. ' Right? And then after that we say something like, ' Where 'easily' is defined by... ' and then put an agreed definition? Would that work?"

She didn't know, but it made sense to her. The biggest problem was that he seemed to think that adding too much to the Oath would somehow make it less potent, like it wouldn't work as good. Would this be too much of an alteration?

Despite her inexpertise, however, she continued on. He'd asked for her opinion, after all. She supposed he wanted to see if she was actually worth making a real Oath for. If she would be useful as an assistant at all. Like a test.

"If what I said before works for that part, like adding in a definition of 'easily', then could we do the same thing for the later part, about the teaching stuff...? Like, if we add to the, uh, ' Final Clause ' something about ' OR the signee will be released if Clyde Sullins does not provide, um, an education to the signee that satisfies the agreed terms. ' And then we can put in the 'agreed terms'...? ' " She tried to think if all that would work. She disliked fumbling around like this, not knowing what to do or how to say, but it was hard. Her head hurt, and she had never paid quite so close attention to reading and writing stuff before, since it hadn't mattered so much. Still, she didn't know if that last part was right, if it would fit. She'd have to see what Clyde thought about it all.

by **Clyde Sullins** on May 25th, 2015, 11:05 pm

After that Xii responded with quite a few things, more a stream of thought or consciousness than an actual answer. Most of it Clyde heard but ignored as unimportant. While it was interesting to hear her thought process, something he'd note for later, he needed to concentrate on her end points in their relevance to the dealings going on now.

Before he had a chance to take issue with her first suggestion for a fix, she carried on, modifying, changing, thinking.

Clyde let her finish up her train of thought, simply listening and waiting for the right moment to respond.

“In theory that would work, but in this particular case, with such an open ended need, one which I am uncertain of its specifics, it'd be tricky if not impossible to narrow down the specific meaning of "easily" as it applies to this oath. And even if we could... Easy regardless is going to be troublesome, since it would be very situation specific. Likewise, if we add the modifier of easy, and by your understanding the situation fits within easy, that does not necessarily mean I'd agree with your assessment. We could then end up in the same situation where you assess it as easy for me to do, but due to other circumstances, perhaps ones you don't know of even, it is not truly easy. Would I then need to explain and convince you every time I ask a task of you why it isn't? ”

“And really, much of what I ask of you could be easily defined as easy, at least at first. For now your skills are low, so I can only expect so much of you till you are better trained. So the tasks I might ask of you would likely be easy. But once I better understand your capabilities, and your skills increase, I would expect more of you.”

“Additionally, what if I ask you to do a task simply for the learning involved in doing it? In that case I might use a task or exercise as a learning tool. Some magics are a bit esoteric. Understanding them can likewise at times be done in odd or unexpected ways. If I have to explain every task I ask of you, whether its a true task or one designed for you to learn something, it rather defeats the purpose of anything I might gain by you aiding me. It might appear that a odd task, say noting the number of leaves with a tear in them, is useless, but perhaps the process of notation and noticing is itself what I wish you to do.”

Where before Clyde had been a bit aggravated, now he was calm enough. If anything he seemed more calm than before, perhaps even as if he was enjoying himself a bit. Debating logic, theory, and such, were things he enjoyed. Scholarly arguing, the use of persuasion to bring someone to your side, all were things Clyde liked to do. They were also things he was quite skilled in.

“Further reason why I'd think it'd be better to steer clear of specific's with that line of the oath. I promise to act in good faith, in turn you will inevitably need to trust me to an extent.”

Clyde paused for a moment, before slowly pressing onward to the last bit about the added clause.

“As for the final clause... It could work, but beyond needing to specify the expected amount and type of learning, we'd also need to likely define what learning and teaching is. Like I said before, some of my lessons might be a bit esoteric, and some might not even directly involve magic, but might involve other things you need to know or learn of. If we simply stated X lessons, or X bells a season spent teaching you, that wouldn't work. There are tasks to learn, independent study I might set you upon. Direct teaching is only but one arrow in a teachers quiver.”

“Additionally, what would be expected? What if I was busy one season, and didn't have time to directly teach you, but another season I had ample time and could teach you quite a bit. Or what if a task I have you upon brings you out of contact with me, and thus makes it hard or impossible for me to instruct you? Or what if there is a need to distance ourselves from each other, and pretend to not know each other? Teaching you then would likewise be not allowed. Would it then be fair for you to be released due to such unexpected or outside influences or scenarios? All of such can't be accounted for in the oath. This is why in the large part I try to keep from being too specific, as by being specific I in turn must be specific about another thing, which causes me to be specific about another, and so on and so forth.”

“If you think you have an idea for a specific addition, or terms of instruction that are reasonable, I will hear it, but bear in mind the issues I've presented.”